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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

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Author
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-03-23 12:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Hello people,

We would like your feedback on the various new structure lines presented during Fanfest and on our latest structure blog.

This particular thread is going to focus what happens to items stored inside structures when they blow up (or end up captured) in a blaze of glorious space explosions.


  • First option is to have the structure turn into a wreck - fitted structure modules could drop as loot, while items inside the structure would only be accessible to their rightful owner(s), possibly through salvaging. Users docked at the time of the structure destruction would still be docked inside the wreck, but unable to dock back should they exit.

  • Another option is to use the same mechanic we have for planetary launches. When a structure is destroyed, all assets are moved into special containers. A container exists for each individual that stored items in the structure, as well as corporation entities and are spread around planets. When this happens, an entry would appear on the owner journal giving a warp-in point to go to. Please note such containers would not be destructible at all, and could not be scanned until the rightful owner comes to retrieve his or her loot. The duration at which those entries would stay remains entirely dependent to the structure type and player condition when it was destroyed (logged off, account lapsed etc…). Player docked inside the structure would be spread around the solar system.

  • Third option could be to have the items inside the structure moved to another structure belonging to the same owners.



Such gameplay is necessary if we wish players to use those new structures and not stash all of their items in NPC stations. Also, please note, it is possible for such mechanics to only be available in the largest structures (most likely XL) since existing Starbases do not have any kind of item safety mechanic (and would likely end up as L size equivalent in the new model).
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2015-03-23 12:23:01 UTC
The second option isn't very feasible in a few scenarios:
1) How would it interact with significant volumes of items that would take some time to recover? Would the container 'despawn' when not in use, and come back again?
2) What about extremely bulky items such as station containers or assembled capital ships? They can't be picked up even by freighters.
3) How would it interact with corporation assets; who gets to spawn and access them?

Would you consider adding the option to rebuild / restore structure wrecks generated by the first method?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2015-03-23 12:43:52 UTC
Agreed that some mechanism of recovering assets is vital to encourage use of these destructible structures.

Perhaps a last-ditch option — NPCs airlift half (or less) your stuff to the nearest npc 0.0 or lowsec area, chosen randomly from the stuff that you have? Retain one or more of the other options as a way to get back all your stuff, but using the airlift makes the stuff not randomly chosen be destroyed.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Vicar2008
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-03-23 12:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicar2008
Quick question, not sure if this has been asked yet?

Are these types of structures going to be along the old line of one per system, like one station per system in 0.0?
Lu Ziffer
Jelly Baby Corporation
Guardian Society
#5 - 2015-03-23 12:48:24 UTC
How about you can send SoE to retrieve your assets but you have to pay 0,5% of the value per ly between the destroyed structure and the delivery station?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#6 - 2015-03-23 12:53:21 UTC
Would containers be able to be found by ninja looters scouring the are of a destroyed station to de-cloak the can (like the standard sleeper cache cans)?
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-03-23 12:53:29 UTC
Another (potential) issue.

What about people who have unsubbed? If stuff ends up in containers scattered around, you could be adding lots of objects to the servers over time that may never (?) go away.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#8 - 2015-03-23 13:02:11 UTC
There should be a difference between what is lost in the hangar normally, and what is in station containers.

The containers should be whole, with their loot inside.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-03-23 13:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Maybe the best of all worlds.

There has to be a benefit to the killer of the structure (aka loot), but you cannot screw over those already inside the structure either (making them poor).

So maybe doing all three of those at once.

You destroy a structure, 10% of it drops as loot immediately, 40% of it remains in space for indeterminent amount of time to be picked up, if not, becomes free for all loot, the other 50% gets moved another structure belonging to the same owner.

Basically, the person loses 10% of their belongings immediately, can recover 40% if they go get it, and has HALF of their stuff moved to the next structure. So you guaranteed lose half of your stuff, with the ability to recover up to 90% of your stuff if you go get it. You aren't spacepoor because you at least got 50% of it.

Evacing stuff out isn't mandatory anymore because you'll at least get half of it back, but the attacker gets some immediate benefit for attacking (loot), and some more loot if they catch or camp the spot of destruction.

The numbers can be played with. 10% seems low, 20% seems high, maybe 15% is the good drop loot rate.

Yaay!!!!

Ix Method
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-03-23 13:14:39 UTC
If it is to be a wreck or something similar it would be nice to have your kerpsloded stuff contractable to a courier contract.

Travelling at the speed of love.

MiliasColds
Strategic Incompetence
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#11 - 2015-03-23 13:16:36 UTC
something that my ceo brought up was that for corporations, and even players these assets include many ships, and if you couldn't re-dock, and only salvage from wreck how do you get the ships you didn't undock in, and also that the volume can be very large. most importantly though as it stands even if you never get access to the outpost things are trapped in now, you can at least use jump clones to sell the things. so perhaps there should be an option to take an insurance style payout at some % of value and then have the items dissapear ?

moslty he brought up that you have to consider that there may be A LOT of assets in these structures, not something you can fit in one or two freighters, but more like 15-20
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#12 - 2015-03-23 13:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
In my opinion, being able to undock from wreck and unable to dock back is rather odd.

However, the idea of using the same thing than planetary-launches sound rather cool! You could see emergency ejection capsules going off in all directions when you kill a structure, with the number of ejection capsules reflecting the amount of stuff that was inside.

For docked ships, you would log-in docked in your ejection capsule (or just undocked) at a safe. And you'd be able to collect your stuff by warping to another safe with your loot, only known to you.

Otherwise, the idea of having it teleported to another structure is also interesting. But less eve-like. Edit: And easily exploitable.

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Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#13 - 2015-03-23 13:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
Considering the value of the items currently in a freeform 'mooring' in POS's any significant reduction to the safety of those assets when moving from the current system to this new system will be met with significant resistance, and rightly so in my opinion.

considering that in the devblog it reads:

Quote:
...if your e-peen is too large for docking, mooring will be preferred option.

...Wreck: when a structure is destroyed ... Moored ships would however become vulnerable and up for grabs by anyone.


im paraphrasing slightly but the intent is pretty obvious from what i see. This goes entirely against the 1st Improvement Goal set out at the start of the devblog and states:

Quote:
Support and enhance existing gameplay


this change does not Support or enhance gameplay, it removes gameplay options and endangers assets owned by players when they may not even be logged in. which is entirely unfair.
Im not going to lie, for people hunting e-peens its fantastic news, and is why i fully expect some severe polarisation of views on this.

My personal opinion on what should be done with regards to logged off supers that arent aggro'd but are moored onto a structure thats about to die, is that a ship cuts off mooring ties and 'blind' jumps to a random location in a randomised system.

In terms of specific eve context this random location could be within base jump range attribute of the super from its previous location, and due to its blind jump there's would be no cyno to speak of. Its Jump would be conducted from within the mooring forcefield that counteracts any warp disruption field around it. This action could not and should not be available to an active player or in any other situation except the cataclysmic destruction of the structure containing the mooring service.
Once the jump is completed the super e-warps off using base attributes for the ship in terms of align speed and warp. The blind jump direction and distance is trackable due to how eve jump portals work, so it does give a hint of its direction. Knowledge of this and the configuration of nearby star systems can be key to planning a trap with sufficient skill, knowledge and preparation, alongside a good amount of luck.

This would also add to the necessity of strategic placement of supercapital mooring pens, rather than just where its convenient.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-03-23 13:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Magic teleporters transporting all your stuff to the next nearest npc station sounds like the sort of thing that could be hilariously exploitable -stockpile a load of war materials in your own manufacturing hub, blow up your own structure and get an instant ship cache for the alliance in the NPC space a couple of regions over!

(Yes we will do this).

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-03-23 14:13:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There should be a difference between what is lost in the hangar normally, and what is in station containers.

The containers should be whole, with their loot inside.


There could be something interesting to this. Not necessarily saying that everything in containers should be safe. But what if there was some sort of vault storage in station. Something in station that is maybe safer than other forms of storage. Either auto transports to a new location or that locked container has a longer despawn time or something.

Obviously you would want some sort of downside, either size or perhaps limits on when you can move things in and out. IE it's locked in there for a certain amount of time.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#16 - 2015-03-23 14:31:22 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Another (potential) issue.

What about people who have unsubbed? If stuff ends up in containers scattered around, you could be adding lots of objects to the servers over time that may never (?) go away.


Said containers could be spawned only if the rightful owner warps to their journal entry. Or something. Smile
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#17 - 2015-03-23 14:37:12 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Another (potential) issue.

What about people who have unsubbed? If stuff ends up in containers scattered around, you could be adding lots of objects to the servers over time that may never (?) go away.


Someone suggested an interesting solution for this at Fanfest, just pause their journal entry expiry times while inactive and have them resume when they rejoin.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#18 - 2015-03-23 14:41:37 UTC
An option we are considering to provide loot even while having a safety for personal assets would be dropping some percentage of anything "in progress" like industry job build materials for example. So that along with the structure fittings should provide some goodies for an aggressor to take home.

Dedicated aggressors could also attempt to camp out the system to prevent collection of assets from safed cans, especially in nullsec or wormholes.

Evac ops where big fleets form up to collect their stuff later on could also be a thing.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2015-03-23 14:51:59 UTC
Wouldn't this just reinforce what alliances already do and put caches in NPC stations at the first sign of? Or do you plan on allowing us to blow up NPC stations as well?

Also consider legacy items - like many I have a ton of stuff in different stations around null and never had to consider that one day the whole mechanics would change and there is no chance with the current space aids mechanics of me ever getting these items out in bulk and moving them. Would you put a one time only plan in place to move said assets to a safe station?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#20 - 2015-03-23 14:52:14 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
An option we are considering to provide loot even while having a safety for personal assets would be dropping some percentage of anything "in progress" like industry job build materials for example. So that along with the structure fittings should provide some goodies for an aggressor to take home.

Dedicated aggressors could also attempt to camp out the system to prevent collection of assets from safed cans, especially in nullsec or wormholes.

Evac ops where big fleets form up to collect their stuff later on could also be a thing.

You could have the items roll for drops more than once, first time is for the original owner, second time determines if any of the loot the owner doesn't get is distributed as dropped loot.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

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