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Proposal to change the order mechanic, introducing price ranges

Author
Tyler Cadelanne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-03-21 18:05:44 UTC
I propose that the market order system be adjusted. Currently, they are a fixed price. I propose that a check box be added that allows the poster to specify a range. When posted, an order with a range would be the best (highest for selling, lowest for buying) price possible in its range that still makes it first in line. Adjustments within this range would be instant, as soon as a stimulus order was posted.

The way it would work is that if you posted a sell order for 100m-130m isk and had no competition, searchers would be able to buy from your order for 130m. If someone posted a competing order for 120m-125m isk, buyers would see your order first for just under 120m, and the competitor's order for 120m isk. If a competitor posted an order with a range that fell below your minimum, your order would no longer be first until the competitor sold out.

If two orders have the same minimum price, the same rules that are in effect now would apply.

Why?

Because right now, the players who make the highest profit margins (although often lower profit per hour played, unless they're cheating) are the ones who camp the stations' markets. Making orders have ranges would be a disincentive to camping the same item, undercutting by 0.01 isk very frequently.
Alhira Katserna
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2015-03-21 20:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Alhira Katserna
Troll or not? What?

If serious: And what will happen when 3 people set the range from 100 to 130 mil? They undercut themself in 2 seconds down to 100 mil? And when suddenly all people use this?

Also F&ID is this way.

EDIT: And for last... -1 from my side. If someone other is better/faster than you you have to change yourself not the game.
Tyler Cadelanne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-03-21 21:39:46 UTC
Not a troll, just new. I'll go post there. Also, if three people with the same order posted, the same thing that happens now would happen- they would all be at the same price, and I think whoever's order ends first or was posted last would be lowest.
virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#4 - 2015-03-21 22:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
Hi there.
Whilst I appreciate your idea it's probably not a good idea. I'll explain with examples why below.
The reason you got accused of being a troll, is because complex solutions for perceived Eve problems usually end in tears. They are also almost always to solve an individual's problems within Eve and not thought out from a greater good point of view.
"I don't like xxxx, here's my alternative solution that suits me."

If you genuinely believe there is an issue with an Eve mechanic my advice, and I think this comes originally from the devs, is to define the problem clearly before any attempt at a solution. The problem should be an everyone in Eve problem, not just you.

OK on to your idea.

It can cause confusion - unintended.
A newbie wants to buy 100 widgets. You have 100 widgets up for sale using your price range option you described above. Someone else has 10 widgets on the market 0.1 cheaper than you at the station the newbie is trying to buy from.
He intends to buy all 100. He buys the cheaper 10, but now your widgets aren't being pegged down by the lower price 10 and yours shoot back up in price to the top of your range. All of a sudden he can't afford them any more and he has no idea why.

Second example - and this is the killer. Believe me the market hawks would be on this like a fat kid on a smartie. Eve players will exploit any loophole they can and eat you alive.
You have 100 battleships for sale. An evil player wants to buy them all, but as cheaply as possible off you. He exploits your idea massively.
He manually lists 1 battleship up for sale. Yours automatically go 0.1 isk cheaper using your system above.
He walks the price of his one battleship down and down and down watching your auto system undercut him each time.
At some point he has found your lower limit - your order refuses to undercut him.
He now knows your lowest possible price.
He lists a second battleship - or even the same one - for 0.1 ISK more than your lowest price.
Your auto system lists all 100 of your battleships at the very lowest price in your range.
He buys all 100 battleships off you having exploited your system to force you to sell at the very lowest price.

If there is a way to exploit bad design in Eve the players will find it I promise you. The above only represents 30 seconds of analysis. God knows what they could do to your idea after a week. CCP has to deal with this every day. In general the simpler the better. Also as I said before, before coming up with an idea put a lot of effort into identifying and defining the problem before even thinking about a solution.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#5 - 2015-03-22 06:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
virm pasuul wrote:
complex solutions for perceived Eve problems usually end in tears.
It's not complex, this is how auctions are done on ebay.

virm pasuul wrote:
He buys the cheaper 10, but now your widgets aren't being pegged down by the lower price 10
Orders will not be pegged down like that. My sell order is either a) the lowest, and within my sell price range, or b) my order is not the lowest because the lowest order is outside my price range. In this case my shown sell price would be 0,01 isk below the lowest order within my price range. There would be no confusion to the buyer.

virm pasuul wrote:
He buys all 100 battleships off you having exploited your system to force you to sell at the very lowest price.
OMG I sold 100 battleships at the price I designated for them to be sold. I am struggling to get into my head why this should make me unhappy?
Again, if this is too complex for you, I must emplore you never to visit ebay, they would eat you alive there :)

I think the idea from the OP is simple and brillant. However for many players in EVE, 0.01 isking is the only way they can imagine to make money so they will hate on it. This idea would force traders to think about pricing, and take some advantage away from those playing 10+ hours per day.

In other words, it would make me much richer. But I am being strictly neutral here ofc :)

My channel: "Signatures" -

virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#6 - 2015-03-22 12:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
I think comparisons with ebay are a little disingenuous at least..
There are several differences that I would have thought make it obvious even to the casual observer that a direct comparison of the two has little merit.

In ebay not all items are equal - some are brand new, some are used, some are already broken and sold as spares. In Eve all items of the same type are exactly the same. A DCU 2 that has been used for several years is exactly equal to one that has just been produced. There are no brands with differences in quality between the brands. An item purchased off the Eve market will function exactly as defined by CCP. An item purchased off ebay is a gamble. The expectation of buyers in these two different systems is not the same.

In addition as an occasional user of ebay, I find ebay exhibits human factors during the purchaser's decision process. How good and professional is the listing? How many similar items does the seller have for sale? What is the seller's feedback like? A myriad of other human factors come into play on ebay that don't at all come into play in Eve.

And lastly, items sold on ebay that are "similar" are not grouped into a large single listing as in Eve. All DCU2s are listed in a single auction in Eve. In ebay each one gets its own listing. Ebay is far more similar to the contracts system in Eve than the market listing for a given device. This one massive difference alone torpedoes the Eve ebay comparison well out of the water.

For the reasons above I feel a comparison of the Eve market to ebay is a very poor idea because the two systems are so different. Any idea based on the logic "Eve is like ebay so any idea that works for ebay would be good for Eve" relies on a an assumption that can be easily shown to be false "Eve is like ebay", no it's not.


I showed with my original second example how easily exploitable the idea is and would be in practice.
Any problem that it purportedly proposes to solve still exists after it's implementation. I demonstrated this with an example. If original problem still exists what is the point of implementing the solution?

Is 0.1 ISKing a problem?
Is it not a valid form of market PVP in a predominantly PVP game?
Is it not a valid game mechanic?

For me the only problem with 0.1ISKing is when it is done by bots and that's against the Eve ELUA anyway. CCP can and will take action against botting. See the security team presentation from fanfest and previous fanfests.

If you believe that I am wrong can you define and explain why 0.1 ISKing is a problem for the whole of Eve and not just because you find it annoying please? It will help me debate you better if you can explain what problem you think this proposal fixes, because I believe that the assumption that "0.1ISKing is a problem for Eve" to be wrong. And the idea appears to be based on that assumption.
virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#7 - 2015-03-22 12:55:15 UTC
Just so you understand where I'm coming from I myself find 0.1 ISKing annoying.
Whilst I might 0.1 ISK a little - less than 10 price adjusts per week, I find it to be a very sub optimal trading method. Takes lots of time and effort in the face of lots of competition. Low rewards for high uninteresting effort.

I prefer to list my goods near the edges of the peaks and troughs. They take a while to sell, but the margin is much much better, and the effort is very very low. The only downside is I have a lot of goods and ISK tied up at any one time, I am very illiquid.

I am not attacking the idea because it would be bad for me, I am attacking it because I believe it to be a poor solution that is exploitable, and doesn't even solve the problem it purports to solve when no/insufficient effort has been make to define and prove the problem is even real in the first place.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#8 - 2015-03-22 16:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
virm pasuul wrote:
exploitable

I demonstrated to you that your "exploits" are not exploits , and you did not respond, but merely continue to call sales "exploits", If I make a price range for my battleships of 65-80 million, and they sell for 65 million, wherein lies the exploit? They were sold at the price I wanted.

virm pasuul wrote:
doesn't even solve the problem it purports to solve
There is in fact no "problem" with 0.01 iskers that "needs" to be solved. What I said was that the idea in the OP is a great idea.
0,01 isking is a form of primitive gameplay that any monkey could do - which is why bots are always suspected of doing it. We can have something better.

The OP's suggestion would evolve the market towards the domain of the mind rather than the domain of the index finger raping the middle mouse button. Just like the EVE market was previously evolved from a primitive npc market with fixed prices to a more challenging player-run market.

My channel: "Signatures" -

virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#9 - 2015-03-22 16:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
If you sell your battleships for the range 65-80 million and they always all sell at the very lowest price what is the point in having a range?
Why no just sell them at 65 million?
The range part gets nullified by the inherent weakness in the system. It gets nullified by the actions of others.
Your system gets reduced to what already exists.
Why not just sell your battleships at the lower price using the existing system because that's what the idea will be reduced to in practice.
The idea "disappears" under the stress of real life testing and becomes nothing.

Tell me again what would be the benefit of selling your goods at the lowest possible price using your idea versus selling your good at your lowest price using the existing market mechanics?
All it means is work for CCP and possible confusion for newer players, and otherwise no net change apart from pointless complexity.

A previous unrelated worthwhile change does not mean by extension ALL changes are worthwhile. This one has not yet been proven to have any shred of benefit.
I am providence
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-03-22 17:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: I am providence
Cista2 wrote:
virm pasuul wrote:
exploitable

I demonstrated to you that your "exploits" are not exploits , and you did not respond, but merely continue to call sales "exploits", If I make a price range for my battleships of 65-80 million, and they sell for 65 million, wherein lies the exploit? They were sold at the price I wanted.


Ok, I think you didnt get the point virm wanted to point out (although I may also have misunderstood it due to the fact, that i am not native in english Roll ).


Let´s stop calling it "exploit" but "using the game mechanik to work around the newly implemented feature of the price range". There is no real gain from introducing price ranges if anyone can just explore the lowest range through trial-and-error-games and resort again to a simple 0.01 ISK less than the order of your opponent.
But thats not the only flaw in this idea, like virm said there is a real "killer" inside.

In fact, it would also render any effords to compete with a skilled trader meaningless.
Reason: even I (as a small trader) pay way less taxes and fees than a newbie do - with a feature OP described, he ultimatively could never compete with me. Because I actualy could set my lowest possible price just below his lowest possible price (which I can explore through the method virm explained) and he could not do anything about it. I would have a margin of maybe 0.X%, but hey - the market is mine alone... until someone else with a even better standing shows up or I stop updating my orders.

Now it is a "battle" who can adjust his order more often a day.
With price ranges, there would be no battle at all - just a "I slept with the broker and the whole caldari navy"-game, where the one with the best standing (most likely the one who don´t charge extra for bareback and swallowing) will win the day, when he/she set the range of his price. Right now I dont know the margin of my fellow traders - and thats a good thing, otherwise i would simply push my standing to 10.0 and rule over 305 Items with a 0.0X% of margin.


A few words to the OP: in the market (regardless which hub you prefer) are bilions to make, even for newbies like you.
At the start it may be an normal 0.01-ISK-business - but after 1-2 months into the game and some intelectual efforts, there is no real need to play the pesky 0.01 - game anymore.

My Blog (german): http://theevevirus.wordpress.com/

All about trading, some PvP, some politics... whatever i want to write about

Cista2
EVE Museum
#11 - 2015-03-22 17:50:24 UTC
Sigh.
Every seller in EVE already operates with ranges.
You set 10 of your widgets for sale for 20 million isk each. You come back in the evening or 20 minutes later: 2 of your widgets have sold, but the price has been driven down to 19 million isk. You lower your sell price to just under 19 mil isk. Later you come back and 2 more have sold.

See what you did there? You sold 4 of your widgets in the *range* of 19-20 million isk.

This was accomplished by a (simplified) babysitting of orders, but with the OP's suggestion, it could have been accomplished by considering and defining your range beforehand.

With the suggestion implemented, both ways of managing your orders, the babysitting and the pre-defined range, would be possible, allowing for an even more evolved market gameplay. I would certainly increase my profits if both options were available, because I do not play the 0.01 isk game all day.

As I said before, the additional option would allow brainpower to influence the markets more, rather than players spinning mousewheels all day :)

My channel: "Signatures" -

Feoria Saissore
Evil League of Evil Corp
#12 - 2015-03-22 17:53:54 UTC
I personally enjoy playing the .01 isk game but I'm a market rat in every MMO I play. While I would love for more of my items to sell when I'm at work and can't monitor my orders, I think the system we currently have is fine and doesn't need any changing. Sorry OP it is a good idea, it's just not a good idea for EVE.

"All I'm sayin is, if The Doctor wanted to save our universe, all he has to do is go back in time and get Firefly back on the air."

virm pasuul
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#13 - 2015-03-22 17:59:55 UTC
When people have to manually 0.01 ISK manually the price moves quite slowly.
Even 100 adjusts only result in a 1 ISK change.
When it's all automatic ebay style it just jumps instantly to the very end of someone'e range.

I think you would find if you're a seller you would make a lot less profit than playing the 0.01 ISK game. Prices would be squeezed far more than they are now.

Yes players operate with a range already, but the speed at which that range in put into effect is slow and depends on manual persistence. It is almost like market PVP shock horror gasp.
Automating that across many players would result in exactly what I am providence describes, a free fall rush to the bottom.
One person who had access to the range system whilst no one else did would experience a benefit. ALL market users using the range system would nuke each other horrendously. Mutually assured destruction.

I fear the brainpower idea has not been fully thought out.

Cista2
EVE Museum
#14 - 2015-03-22 18:04:52 UTC
I am providence wrote:
I would have a margin of maybe 0.X%, but hey - the market is mine alone... until someone else with a even better standing shows up or I stop updating my orders.


You don't know the margin that precisely when you buy the items.

If the maximum skilled players set their orders so that they would gain 0.1% profit, they would lose money every time the market went down 0.2%. EVE markets, even PLEX, often move 2-3% within hours. Every hardcore trader would think very carefully about where he set his range.

As I keep saying, setting ranges would demand more thinking about what you are doing. And as I also said, many players will hate on ideas that involve thinking.
Anyway, it will never be implemented, so enough from me on the subject.

My channel: "Signatures" -

Cista2
EVE Museum
#15 - 2015-03-22 18:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
virm pasuul wrote:
Yes players operate with a range already, but the speed at which that range in put into effect is slow and depends on manual persistence.

Not in the market sections that I operate in lol


virm pasuul wrote:
I think you would find if you're a seller you would make a lot less profit than playing the 0.01 ISK game.
Yes but I already told you so three times, I don't play the 0,01 isk game. I am ok with 40% less money for 80% less effort.
With the OP's suggestion I would make more money , and the 0,01 iskers would make less. So I like the idea, and they would not like it. And it will not be implemented.

But that was not the crux of the debate here. The theme of our little debate was that you claimed that this idea would be of use to *noone* and would only be hurtful because of "exploits".

Sorry but you lost that debate.

Look at Feoria posting above. She agrees that ranges would be a useful tool for when not babysitting orders. But she also knows she makes more money by turbo-babysitting under the current system, so she does not want the change. (Which is a fully understandable position to take for her)

My channel: "Signatures" -

I am providence
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2015-03-22 18:44:30 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
Sigh.
Every seller in EVE already operates with ranges.
You set 10 of your widgets for sale for 20 million isk each. You come back in the evening or 20 minutes later: 2 of your widgets have sold, but the price has been driven down to 19 million isk. You lower your sell price to just under 19 mil isk. Later you come back and 2 more have sold.

See what you did there? You sold 4 of your widgets in the *range* of 19-20 million isk.


You dont need to "sigh" - I hope we can discuss this like adults, because thats what I am trying to do.

Yes, i have a specific range I sell my stuff for.
But - and thats the crucial point - I dont adjust my orders automaticaly.
Following the idea of the OP, the price adjusts himself just below the price of my competitor.
Solution for always beeing on top: I enter the lowest possible price as the lowest price in my range. If I have perfect standing, I am always on top and it all comes down to a battle of chars with maxed out standings.

Lets make an example:
I pay 0.40% taxes+fees and a newbie pays 0.70% (not actual values, just an example).
The item sells at 9,000.
I can drive the newbie completely out of competition, just by setting my lowest possible price between 9,036 (my lowest possible price) and 9,063 (lowest possible price of the newbie).
Now I can (!) in theory (!) set a possible price of 9,063 ISK per item from the start to drive out all competitors. It is my decision and my action and will only happen, when I am online and adjust the price myself.
But with the system of said price ranges, the price would be automaticaly forced to come down to the lowest possible margin of a single player, because otherwise it would be hard to sell the goods at all. Especialy when we start to talk about markets, where it is pretty easy to maintain days of demand inside the orders.

Cista2 wrote:
With the suggestion implemented, both ways of managing your orders, the babysitting and the pre-defined range, would be possible, allowing for an even more evolved market gameplay. I would certainly increase my profits if both options were available, because I do not play the 0.01 isk game all day.


Most markets would be plain dead, not evolved. Because it would not be an itty-bitty-process in moving prices but a single "wham" and we would need a magnifiing glass to spot the difference between sell- & buyorder.

You could pretty much say that the same thing would happen, what happens right now in the real world with amazon and the book store around the corner. Amazon does not make a single cent of profit but can (and do) cut every price, enhances its market power and drives many competitors out of the market. In EVE, this market power would be your standing with the corp which runs the station and the fraction. In Jita 4-4 this would be the navy and the caldari state.

Cista2 wrote:
As I said before, the additional option would allow brainpower to influence the markets more, rather than players spinning mousewheels all day :)


Like I said: there are many opportunities besides playing the 0.01ISK-war. And even inside it, there are many possibilites and niches which are highly profitable for a newbie. I started with 5 millions myself a few years ago, it all comes down to patience and brain. And even if someone lacks brain, with patience alone he/she can make his/her way to becoming a multi-billionaire in 2 or 3 months, just by sitting 1 hour a day on updating the orders.

My Blog (german): http://theevevirus.wordpress.com/

All about trading, some PvP, some politics... whatever i want to write about

I am providence
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-03-22 18:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: I am providence
Cista2 wrote:
You don't know the margin that precisely when you buy the items.


I know the lowest possible sales price the moment i buy the item.
Price + broker fee + taxes = lowest possible sales price, everything above this price is profit.
The gap between this price + the actual sales price is the net margin.

Cista2 wrote:
If the maximum skilled players set their orders so that they would gain 0.1% profit, they would lose money every time the market went down 0.2%. EVE markets, even PLEX, often move 2-3% within hours. Every hardcore trader would think very carefully about where he set his range.


Thats the core of whole thing: right now the price can change, because we dont know for what price every other participant on the market is willing to sell his batch. Because the price is sluggish and only changes slowly, mostly due to the 0.01ISK-game.

With price ranges we could explore the lowest possible price and undercut it any way we want, if we can. And the whole idea goes down the river when I know how much my competitors can actualy charge for their goods.

With ranges, it all boils down to 2 hard facts:
a) If I cannot cut him, I stay away from the market - no profit at all
b) If I can cut him, he is completely out of competition as long as I have goods to sell - a very very small guaranteed profit

Right now the situation is like that: I set my orders, lay down for a nap and 2 hours later about 5-10% of my orders are fulfilled.

My Blog (german): http://theevevirus.wordpress.com/

All about trading, some PvP, some politics... whatever i want to write about

IcyMind Arierep
Digital Chess Session
#18 - 2015-03-23 20:06:16 UTC
I don't like to be mean, but seems that is working as intended, moving on.

Don't like the .01 isk game add x100 times normalize the price, do something about it.

Have fun trading !
Tyler Cadelanne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-03-25 11:44:13 UTC
I don't 0.01 isk, I undercut meaningful amounts. It's my course of personal best interest because I'm not interested in competing on the basis of who can spend more time in a station, but rather in who can buy better or relocate stock better.

I don't think that 0.01 isking is fun, and if that's what people think the optimal way to trade is, whether they're right or wrong, they'll do it. Trade should be about planning and execution, not repetitive choiceless actions that are easily automatable.

If this is a problem that needs solving, there are many ways to do it. I picked one that I thought would be easier to digest- there's a precedent in other markets (ebay, as was mentioned), and it's backwards compatible with the current system, only adding a single interface element.
IcyMind Arierep
Digital Chess Session
#20 - 2015-03-25 15:02:53 UTC
Totally agree, and thats why trading is fun. You can spend a lot of time without docking. Or do some research and move items from one place to another one. I don't think one way is better than the other since both of them can provide profit depending on the market. Have fun trading.