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Incentivization and Lucrativity

Author
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#1 - 2015-03-08 22:58:13 UTC
Let me start off by saying that I do hope that this is in the right section. If it's not, I apologize, but these are questions for miners. Now, on to the content of the post.

I am curious to know what incentive miners could have for moving to an area, especially more dangerous areas (e.g., lowsec). Is it the ore? Obviously security is a factor, but what level of security would it take for miners to consider an area to be a good mining area? Will only the protection of CONCORD or your nullsec renter alliance be enough? Would the watchful eye of lowsec mercenaries be enough?

Does the profitability of buy orders in an area, for both ore and minerals, factor into such considerations? Perhaps the availability of replacement ships and modules?

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Cap James Tkirk
Ironstar Industries and Research
Build-a-Bear
#2 - 2015-03-08 23:27:33 UTC
Mining is done in 2 places really HS and Null

HS offers little by way of isk and no protection
Null offers better ores and profits plus Blue Ring of doughnuts only thing that stops some of the mining populace is the o so scary AFK Campy Cloaker

mining anywhere else is pretty stupid unless baiting then thats a whole new kinda mining.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2015-03-08 23:29:59 UTC
I've lost track of how many threads on this topic I've seen... mostly in GD.
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#4 - 2015-03-08 23:33:20 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I've lost track of how many threads on this topic I've seen... mostly in GD.


Really? I honestly had no idea it was that popular of a topic... Straight

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Civ Kado
Antares Astronautics
#5 - 2015-03-08 23:38:21 UTC
a lot more resources? much of the highly trafficked high sec systems are devoid of any decently-sized stones. not even worth mining.

Also, mining barges like the procurer and skiff make great bating ships ;)
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#6 - 2015-03-09 02:19:09 UTC
Cap James Tkirk wrote:
Mining is done in 2 places really HS and Null

HS offers little by way of isk and no protection
Null offers better ores and profits plus Blue Ring of doughnuts only thing that stops some of the mining populace is the o so scary AFK Campy Cloaker

mining anywhere else is pretty stupid unless baiting then thats a whole new kinda mining.


Most 0.0 'mining' is just reprocessing the Meta 0-3 loot dropped from ratting, with the exception of Ice products.

I made a tidy packet of ISK one weekend simply dropping MTUs at closed sites where the ratter just left the wrecks strewn about. Give it ~20 minutes to reel everything in, return with a salvage destroyer, salvage the wrecks, reprocess the junk loot, sell the decent Meta 4 stuff.

Certainly not the most exciting or enjoyable thing I've done in-game, but when you're still climbing Mt Skillpoint to get into a 0.0 capable ratting ship, it was some easy ISK.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#7 - 2015-03-09 04:01:10 UTC
What are you trying to accomplish?

Many new miners have visions of venturing into low-sec -- until they find out that there is almost no financial advantage over high-sec along with an incredible increase in risk.

SJ Astralana
Syncore
#8 - 2015-03-09 10:19:56 UTC
Strategery

Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager

Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#9 - 2015-03-09 18:15:18 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish?

Many new miners have visions of venturing into low-sec -- until they find out that there is almost no financial advantage over high-sec along with an incredible increase in risk.



Ah, I see. I was thinking that since low-sec provides better ores, if one could mitigate the risk it would attract miners. But you say it gives no financial advantage. Why is that, exactly?

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LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
White Light Liberation
#10 - 2015-03-09 18:38:03 UTC  |  Edited by: LuckyQuarter
There was a phase where I thought it would be great to setup a moon goo processing pos and use that as a base while mining in low-sec...lasted less than one month:

* It was hard to get any mining done as I had to constantly redock the skiff whenever pirates/aggressive locals came into the system.
* Other locals gave not so subtle hints that they didn't like my taking a moon and might wardec my pos
* The only viable way for me at the time to get stuff to market was via viator, which doesn't really hold much minerals

So, while I could possibly make 2x the isk/hr while mining in lowsec...the reality was that it was just too much hassle and lots of wasted time docking up.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#11 - 2015-03-10 07:09:46 UTC
Kerono Thalmor wrote:
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish?

Many new miners have visions of venturing into low-sec -- until they find out that there is almost no financial advantage over high-sec along with an incredible increase in risk.



Ah, I see. I was thinking that since low-sec provides better ores, if one could mitigate the risk it would attract miners. But you say it gives no financial advantage. Why is that, exactly?

CCP will not mitigate the risk - if anything they have been increasing the risk to PvE activities like mining outside of highsec.

Still, it if you want to mine in low-sec it is not the death sentence that people would have you believe and can be done reasonably safely in a mining frigate or with some preparation in an out of the way place. But even if the ore is worth measurably more, the significant overhead of finding a quiet place, providing security/paying attention, the risk of losing a ship, and moving the ore makes the increase in income not worth it. This is largely because AFKing mining in highsec has requires so little effort, that the attention you have to pay in lowsec can't compete.

Make mining overall a more active experience and perhaps this effort gap would close and people would decide that if they have to pay attention anyway, they might as well do that in lowsec for more income.

If you want a more engaging and lucrative mining experience, I suggest you try ninja WH gas mining. There is something that properly rewards miners for taking some extra risk.
Kerono Thalmor
Band of Buggered
Band of Buggered Alliance
#12 - 2015-03-10 18:08:53 UTC
Of course CCP won't mitigate the risk; I was suggesting that that could be done by the players somehow. What if one could make a quiet place for miners to go for the increased income?

Also, I don't have to ninja it. Blink

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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2015-03-10 19:25:45 UTC
Kerono Thalmor wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I've lost track of how many threads on this topic I've seen... mostly in GD.


Really? I honestly had no idea it was that popular of a topic... Straight

A quick Google search, in no particular order:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=354875
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33039
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=32947
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=75095
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2971500

I couldn't quickly find the ones I was thinking of; the ones that became huge threadnaughts.

A forum search of GD might be more effective than Google.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-03-10 20:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
Quote:

HS offers little by way of isk and no protection
Null offers better ores and profits plus Blue Ring of doughnuts only thing that stops some of the mining populace is the o so scary AFK Campy Cloaker



nullsec actually has worse ore than highsec

arkonor and bistot are worse than Veldspar, Scordite, Kernite and Pyroxeres

Crokite is worse than Pyroxeres

The only nullsec ore that is actually somewhat balanced is Mercoxit
LuckyQuarter
Lucky Galactic Expeditions
White Light Liberation
#15 - 2015-03-10 22:53:28 UTC
The main advantage of highsec mining, is not being AFK..but simply that it allows longer uninterrupted mining and easy transport to market.

Miners might be willing to put up with greater risks and less uninterrupted mining time in exchange for greater value ores, but when you combine that with creating a base/managing a pos in low sec and/or the hassle of safely transporting themselves and ore to market..it just doesn't fly.

Wormholes are actually easier as they address both drawbacks. Uninterrupted mining time is when there is no connecting wormhole to your system. Transport is every week or two when a wormhole to highsec opens.

If ccp wants to make lowsec mining popular, they need to address the transport issue....occasional wormholes directly between random lowsec and highsec systems?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#16 - 2015-03-11 09:58:03 UTC
LuckyQuarter wrote:
The main advantage of highsec mining, is not being AFK..but simply that it allows longer uninterrupted mining and easy transport to market.

Miners might be willing to put up with greater risks and less uninterrupted mining time in exchange for greater value ores, but when you combine that with creating a base/managing a pos in low sec and/or the hassle of safely transporting themselves and ore to market..it just doesn't fly.

Wormholes are actually easier as they address both drawbacks. Uninterrupted mining time is when there is no connecting wormhole to your system. Transport is every week or two when a wormhole to highsec opens.

If ccp wants to make lowsec mining popular, they need to address the transport issue....occasional wormholes directly between random lowsec and highsec systems?

Nah, the majority (vast majority?) of miners mine in highsec AFK - I have empirical data to show this. Having to constantly mash Dscan or watch local cannot compete with the "relaxing" nature of highsec mining where players can semi-AFK and do something else in EVE, or completely AFK and go make a sandwich and watch Netflix all the time accumulating ore.

That said, I do agree the logistics are also an issue. However, there are lowsec-to-highsec wormholes - I have used them to move PI material although I am not sure how frequently they spawn. Also CCP did just significantly buff the number of lowsec-to-lowsec wormholmes so finding one to a quiet highsec-adjacent system should be easier now. The problem is that even if logistics can be done relatively safely with wormholes, it is still way more effort, and some more risk than the equivalent mining in highsec.

It's tough to provide a significant enough incentive for a single miner to take the risk and mine in lowsec without making it completely unbalanced for an organized group which can mitigate the risks easily and then exploit that income advantage to the point where it unbalances the economy. Perhaps seeding rare, ultra-valuable mining anomalies/sites in lowsec that can be found by miners but only would support one or a few miners before disappearing would be a solution. This would reward brave and risk-taking miners (and minimize the logistics issue) but would not scale to the point that an organized fleet can completely out-compete highsec miners.
Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2015-03-11 11:05:32 UTC
Damn it. Forums just ate my post. Well... trying to do it again quickly:

Forgive my ignorance and inexperience; I'm new to eve (again).


What do people think of when they say "AFK miner"? Imo that means someone who is only clicking on their eve windows once every 5 minutes or so to check lasers/rocks/hold/local. Are there really that many people mining in that manner, or do you guys just think "AFK miner" actually means "that guy just ran to the kitchen to refill his coffee mug, what a dirty AFK miner! someone call code!"?


And would a significant boost to lowsec really be that hard to get right? How in the world do you think a group could make lowsec a more profitable location? You'd need highly skilled characters in expensive ships for logistics, 1 combat pilot per 3 or so miners, a large enough group that you have enough combat pilots to deal with more than a solo PVPer warping into the belt, this all happening at scheduled times of the day and/or being in a big enough corp/alliance that this is going on 23/7, etc. And don't forget that being an active group that will defend itself isn't going to deter attacks in lowsec! Every lowsec pirate in the game will be beelining to that system as soon as they know about it. Seems like the only way that would be feasible would be if lowsec mining received such a huge boost that a BIG number of highsec miners turned to lowsec so that the lowsec inhabitants can't keep track of (or hit) all of the mining ops in lowsec. And we both know that no amount of lowsec boost is going to make it that appealing to that many miners.

Imo a significant boost to lowsec mining would make it a place that adventurous solo miners (and small groups of those folk) could find appealing, but that's it.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#18 - 2015-03-11 14:01:55 UTC
Amarrchecko wrote:
What do people think of when they say "AFK miner"? Imo that means someone who is only clicking on their eve windows once every 5 minutes or so to check lasers/rocks/hold/local. Are there really that many people mining in that manner, or do you guys just think "AFK miner" actually means "that guy just ran to the kitchen to refill his coffee mug, what a dirty AFK miner! someone call code!"?

Yes, an AFK miner is someone who clicks a button once every 5-10 minutes and then goes to do something else other than pay attention to the Eve client. That includes, but is not limited to: watching YouTube/Netflix, browsing the web, or playing another game while sitting at your computer, or getting up and making coffee, using the toilet or vacuuming the floor in the other room.

Using the metric of ISK/effort, this is one of the highest paid things you can do as 10 seconds of attention and one (or two) clicks can make you a few million ISK and then you can go do something else for 10 minutes. In lowsec this is not possible as you really need to pay attention to local and any gap in your attention can be fatal so you need to be 'on' for those full 10 minutes. This is why the effort vs. reward skews so heavily in favour of highsec.

The majority of miners operate like this. A small percentage use Hulks and operate in highsec as if it were lowsec watching local like a hawk and having a nearby Orca to swap ships, or just mining aligned to a station, but most just sit there making ISK by not really interacting with the game, watching television or browsing the internet on the same or an adjacent screen. Can't really blame them as mining is so boring and highsec so safe it is the optimal way to mine.

Amarrchecko wrote:
Imo a significant boost to lowsec mining would make it a place that adventurous solo miners (and small groups of those folk) could find appealing, but that's it.

Actually, I am all for boosting lowsec mining income. Certainly the recent stats say it could use a bit of a buff.

For now though, look into wormhole gas mining as something that rewards your adventurous spirit.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#19 - 2015-03-12 16:40:37 UTC
If Steve Ronuken gets voted into the CSM and manages to bring pressure to get the changes to mining he has devised then mining in low-sec MIGHT be more feasible.

I won't fully go into all Steve s mining ideas but it starts with keeping the current basic principle of mining but removing the static asteroid belts. You then go to mining agents at NPC stations and take on mining missions. These would not be the current type of mining mission but sites where you mine the usual types of rock. These sites would belong to you or your mining fleet and if anyone else probed you down and mined those rocks they would get 'suspect' status.

This new way of mining is better as it gives miners a bit more safety as if you see combat probes on Dscan you can just GTFO. It would possibly make miners in nullsec a little happier/safer as well. In addition it means you won't get large AFK/Bot mining fleets landing and clearing out whole belts because they won't be there anymore. Big smile Steve mining 'iteration' is more complicated than just this though so I suggest you look it up and if there is still time give him your vote/s.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#20 - 2015-03-12 16:50:53 UTC
Re Amarrchecko 'afk' question. An 'afk' miner isn't someone who rushes to the biscuit tin, to put the kettle on, or to go for a quick visit to the toilet. It is someone who is rarely paying attention to their miner/s. I imagine there are less people doing this since the changes to ISBoxer type software and the forthcoming 'Sov' changes may bring a decrease in the ore and mineral prices as people switch down to using smaller ships.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .