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Mining Discussion

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2015-02-28 23:24:44 UTC
First of all there is this:

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Around reds no amount of tank is going to help if you get scrammed.
Only if you are solo.

I think the scaling on the ships are all wrong. I would like to see :

Tank go up:
Procurer --> Covetor
Skiff ---> Hulk

Ore Hold go down:
Procurer (at retriever levels) --> Covetor
Skiff (at Mackinaw levels) --> Hulk

Ore Hold go up:
Barge --> Exhumer

Align time go down:
Procurer --> Covetor
Skiff ---> Hulk
Barge --> Exhumer

Acceleration to warp go down:
Procurer --> Covetor
Skiff ---> Hulk
Barge --> Exhumer

Yield go up:
Procurer --> Covetor
Skiff ---> Hulk
Barge --> Exhumer

This would make Procurers cheap, nimble ships that are reasonable (mostly as they are now)
While Hulks would have a decent yield to be worth the risk, large tanks but slow, so they would need support. Anyone solo mining in one would be a fool.

.... and yes, this if you haven't seen it.

Was discussing this with, Jinrai Tremaine

Talking about how Procurers and Skiffs would be more nimble and allow for ninja mining in low sec, they would also be able to fight rats and so they could go in solo, start building up something.

My objective is to see Low Sec as a next step from High Sec (before FW guys moan, there could be war frontiers that cater to you guys)
Vision being people leaving High Sec, making capitals and ships in low sec and invading Null Sec, I suspect this is the original design plan of CCP.

Their idea was that when a belt is cleared anywhere, there is an escalation to a mining belt in Low Sec that has some ore not normally found there.

I feel that when you clear a belt in a Low Sec system it will spawn a richer site (something to start building capitals with) that must be scanned in the same system, this adds some protection and an incentive. So, you can bring out the shiny exhumers and if your guys are sharp they can kill the scanning ships on the gates.

Example of ore found there would be Spodumain for Megacyte but not Bistot or Arkonor. Maybe more Vitric and Glazed Hedgergite.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#2 - 2015-02-28 23:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Veldspar - Max skills
Hulk - 31.45 m3/s with drones - 26.30 m3/s without (16.5%)
Skiff - 27.44 m3/s with drones - 22.28 m3/s without (19%)
Procurer - 23.27 m3/s with drones - 16.56 m3/s without (29%)

Veldspar - Max skills
Mackinaw - 21.90m3/s with drones - 16.75 m3/s without (23%)
Retriever - 22.54 m3/s with drones - 17.39 m3/s without (23%)
Covetor - 27.51 m3/s with drones - 22.35 m3/s without (19%)

Tanks (DCU, rigs and full midslots for tank)
Mackinaw 25.3K eHP
Covetor 12.5K eHP
Retriever 16.7K eHP
Hulk 22.3K eHP with 203 rep per second.
Skiff 72.7K eHP with 240 RPS
Proc 67.5K eHP

Ore hold per ship vs Miasmos (63K x2) 126K
Procurer - 12K m/3 - 515s - 8m 40 sec & 126K = 5414 - 90m 20 sec
Retriever - 22K m/3 - 976 - 16m 20 sec & 126K = 5590 - 93m 9 sec
Covetor - 7K m/3 - 254 - 4m 15 sec & 126K = 4580 - 76m 20 sec

Skiff - 15K m/3 - 546 - 9m 6 sec & 126K = 4591 - 76m 30 sec
Mack - 28K m/3 - 1278 - 21m 20 sec & 126K = 5753 - 95m 54 sec
Hulk - 8,5K m/3 - 270 - 4m 30 sec & 126K = 4006 - 66m 45 sec

So, let's run a few comparisons here:

Retriever has 96% yield and 24.7% of the tank compared to a Procurer ... but it has two lasers! It must be better, right? Roll

Covetor has 0.2% more yield and 17% of the tank that a Skiff has so, all you are buying between the two is a tank and a drone bay ... which yeah, can be a good thing .... but look at the cost difference?
Covetor is 13.6% of the cost, should we be cultivating a mentality of throw away ships where alts die and no cares were given?

Anyway, will get back to this thread when I have had more sleep.

The essential things to a miner are

- Tank = time to live until help arrives
- Tank = ability to deal with rats
- Tank = time for other miners to help apply drones
- Yield = ISK
- ISK = ability to throw away ships or go do something fun

Currently, yield vs tank but yield differences aren't much vs tank differences.

Arrow I would rather have "dock or die" vs "stand and fight" playstyles with yield vs nimbleness to warp.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2015-02-28 23:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
not instantly against this but need time to think some things over will be back


i think the best thing for getting people to mine more LS(and wh) would be to put mining anoms back to sigs myself
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-03-01 00:35:28 UTC

Seems like an incomplete analysis unless Ore Hold size is factored in..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#5 - 2015-03-01 00:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Sibyyl wrote:
Seems like an incomplete analysis unless Ore Hold size is factored in...
I generally ignore that as I actively can mine and haul away. However, hang onto your britches.

Ugh, also have to factor in warp speeds and average turn around times.
Want to go warp to a bunch of belts in many different systems and give me a list of distances to nearest stations in different types of space?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jinrai Tremaine
Cheese It Inc
#6 - 2015-03-01 01:05:14 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Was discussing this with, Jinrai Tremaine

Talking about how Procurers and Skiffs would be more nimble and allow for ninja mining in low sec, they would also be able to fight rats and so they could go in solo, start building up something.

My objective is to see Low Sec as a next step from High Sec (before FW guys moan, there could be war frontiers that cater to you guys)
Vision being people leaving High Sec, making capitals and ships in low sec and invading Null Sec, I suspect this is the original design plan of CCP.

Their idea was that when a belt is cleared anywhere, there is an escalation to a mining belt in Low Sec that has some ore not normally found there.

I feel that when you clear a belt in a Low Sec system it will spawn a richer site (something to start building capitals with) that must be scanned in the same system, this adds some protection and an incentive. So, you can bring out the shiny exhumers and if your guys are sharp they can kill the scanning ships on the gates.

Example of ore found there would be Spodumain for Megacyte but not Bistot or Arkonor. Maybe more Vitric and Glazed Hedgergite.


I should clarify that personally I dislike the idea of lowsec being designed as a stepping stone in a linear progression from High > Null, because IMO building an area purely as a temporary transitional space rather than an independently interesting set of game mechanics is a waste of a corner of the sandbox. Plus I don't really see the need to structure lowsec around producing capitals entirely in-house; seems like it undermines the richness of the New Eden economy which enables player specialization (by letting them buy the 99% of things they're not specialized in producing).

With that said, lowsec mining is definitely in a sorry state, and a lot of that is due to the simple fact that the mechanics of mining don't fit with the largely shoot-first-ask-questions-later playstyle that is the norm in lowsec. Specifically, mining involves long periods of sitting still in what is effectively a public location - either an asteroid belt that's always visible on the in-space menu or an ore anom that's always visible on the probe scanner. The combination of that high visibility and lack of movement makes you a very easy target, while any attempt to change those conditions (by moving around frequently, for example) quickly undermines your profit.

It's tempting to say "just ramp up the ISK/time for lowsec mining" so that players either don't need to sit still mining for as long, or at least have a very easy time of absorbing a few ship losses while sitting still. The problem with this plan is that lowsec mining does not exist in a vacuum (well, technically it does because space, but it's not in a metaphorical vacuum) - its ISK payout comes from mineral demand, the same thing that drives value for mining everywhere else in EVE and sets the prices for the vast majority of ingame items. Drastically increasing mineral supply to drastically increase lowsec mining payout has a lot of knock-on consequences for overall economic stability in general, and non-lowsec mining in particular, but most relevantly it threatens to devalue itself by flooding the market with more ore; it wouldn't matter if lowsec mining paid 10x more than any other mining, if all other mining was worth basically nothing due to the lowsec mineral supply.

On the other hand, by creating Mining Escalations you remove the "public location" from the mining mechanics; escalation sites do not show up on the system signatures index, nor can they be located with scan probes. You'd only need to worry about combat probes finding your ship(s) specifically. Players are still static, but much less visibly so and they have an easy time detecting threats because they just need to DScan regularly enough to spot combat probes. No combat probes, you're safe in your site. On top of that, I think that effectively inviting non-lowsec players to take a brief trip into lowsec, with the structured goal of "go in, clear out the anomaly and get out again" is going to be a lot more effective at getting players to dip their toes outside of hisec compared to the far more vague "go to lowsec and mine better ores".

After some consideration, the Escalations wouldn't work if they only came from clearing out a belt, because the kind of players you want them to attract are the ones who aren't strip-mining entire belts, they're the ones cherrypicking the most valuable ores. Instead, tie the escalations to completely breaking up an asteroid; give each such exhausted asteroid a tiiiiiny chance to spawn an escalation (the flavour text would be something about your ships computer analysing where the asteroid must have originated from, and extrapolating the location of a far more valuable deposit) . The escalation chance could be so low as to usually require a player to clear out 2-5 belts to get an escalation, but of course some will get them far more quickly than that. Also, it would probably be somewhat obnoxious to have nullsec belts escalate to lowsec, just because there's usually some distance between the two, not to mention that nullsec already gets most of the best ores. The same applies to w-space, for what should be obvious reasons. Lowsec belts should escalate, though, if only to avoid the situation where players avoid mining in lowsec belts becaue they don't give ore escalations which are lowsec mining themselves. Likewise, while non-lowsec space should generate the escalations, they should only take place in lowsec.

As for the contents of the Escalation sites, I personally wouldn't have a problem with them containing non-lowsec ore, up to and including mercoxit ore, and in +10% versions not normally found in lowsec. They could even be in unique versions, with even higher yield, in fact.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#7 - 2015-03-01 02:27:42 UTC
Ore holds with rates added. Will have to come back to this thread at a later point with warp and turn around times. My bet is on can mining rather than constantly docking. Blink

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#8 - 2015-03-01 04:42:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Colette Kassia
I care not about the ore holds of mining ships. Moving ore to the station is what haulers are for. If you mine solo with one account then it's a big deal. But I (and most professional miners) have two accounts, one for the ships with the lasers and one for the ship with the cargo hold. Barges and exhumers are merely detached subsystems.

I've done some experimenting with lowsec ninja mining. The problems I encountered had more to do with the support ships than with the actual mining ships. Since no one in their right mind would use an lone Orca for ore hauling in lowsec this task is left to indys and blockade runners (really, only blockade runners). While these ships have fairly large cargo holds compared to others, they are not nearly large enough for the huge volumes of ore that you have to bring in to make an expedition worthwhile.

There is a conspicuous absence of T1 and T2 industrials from ORE that follow the same pattern as the ships from the four empires (the Noctus isn't really a hauler). What I'd like is for ORE to come out with an industrial with a giant ore hold (30,000m3) and a small (few hundred m3) regular hold. All other characteristics would fit the general pattern of the other, conventional industrials. Then it would follow that they'd also produce a BR version. That BR version would be fantastic for lowsec mining. The holds in both T1 and T2 versions should be directly accessible to fleet/corp members similar to the fleet hangar in the Orca.

EDIT: Typos

EDIT: How did I not know about the Miasmos?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-03-01 04:47:49 UTC

I think adding warp times into the analysis would be a bit overkill..

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-03-01 04:59:08 UTC

I apologize for the double post. My edit button experience is a bit dodgy at the moment.

Jen wrote:
Retriever has 96% yield and 24.7% of the tank compared to a Procurer ... but it has two lasers! It must be better, right?

Retty is a better option for a single-account miner due to the Ore Hold (>2x depending on Mining Barge skill level). It is a great option to take fully untanked to hoover an ice belt.

The market price isn't something CCP controls, but I suppose something could be done on the manufacturing materials requirement side to reduce the 6M premium for the Retty.



Quote:
Covetor has 0.2% more yield and 17% of the tank that a Skiff has so, all you are buying between the two is a tank and a drone bay ... which yeah, can be a good thing .... but look at the cost difference?

The yield of boost-friend mining vessels should always be quoted with boosts. The Covetor is an excellent option if you have in-belt security in blue space. It is worthless if you're mining alone in it in hisec.

I think the cost/benefit differences for these two vessels are justified.



My feedback would be to be more clear in terms of what you are suggesting as changes.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-03-01 07:16:41 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Around reds no amount of tank is going to help if you get scrammed.


This is the core.

Low sec mining will take from either the HS mining pool or the Null Sec mining pool. Null miners have no motive to move to low sec, it's backward to do so. HS miners tend to be solo, and or multi box and because of mineral alchemy they are really better serving the industrial base by staying in high sec.

Unless CCP introduce some new manufacturing tree that use nothing but Zydrine and Megacyte and in large quantities, they are over mined as it is. Nocxium sources in Low maybe? It won't require adjustments to the ships though, it will require a new ore with Nocxium and no zydrine. A super Pyroxeres like Ore not found in HS.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#12 - 2015-03-01 08:39:03 UTC
Miners in their infinite wisdom..

Worst pvp'ers of them all and here I thought lowsec pirates are not nice -.-

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#13 - 2015-03-01 09:16:33 UTC
Just put a POS up in wh space and mine until you can't mine no more. The expected thrill of dual statics is wearing off and they folks are leaving them empty again. The NPC data/relic sites are losing thier luster (too little isk for the amount of times you get dunked by dscan immune recons).

Anyway - for various reasons, wh space is clearing out. Come mine there. Best ore and minimal risk. No really. Sure you'll lose some ships and pods, but overall you'll come out way ahead.

Send me a mail and we'll talk about it.

I'd say overall the mining ships are pretty balanced atm. The last set of changes were one of the better changes to the game in some time.

PS if you can also harvest gas (makes silly phone signal w/ hand) call me!
Jinrai Tremaine
Cheese It Inc
#14 - 2015-03-01 11:44:57 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Veldspar - Max skills
Hulk - 31.45 m3/s with drones - 26.30 m3/s without (16.5%)
Skiff - 27.44 m3/s with drones - 22.28 m3/s without (19%)
Procurer - 23.27 m3/s with drones - 16.56 m3/s without (29%)

Veldspar - Max skills
Mackinaw - 21.90m3/s with drones - 16.75 m3/s without (23%)
Retriever - 22.54 m3/s with drones - 17.39 m3/s without (23%)
Covetor - 27.51 m3/s with drones - 22.35 m3/s without (19%)

Tanks (DCU, rigs and full midslots for tank)
Mackinaw 25.3K eHP
Covetor 12.5K eHP
Retriever 16.7K eHP
Hulk 22.3K eHP with 203 rep per second.
Skiff 72.7K eHP with 240 RPS
Proc 67.5K eHP

Ore hold per ship vs Miasmos (63K x2) 126K
Procurer - 12K m/3 - 515s - 8m 40 sec & 126K = 5414 - 90m 20 sec
Retriever - 22K m/3 - 976 - 16m 20 sec & 126K = 5590 - 93m 9 sec
Covetor - 7K m/3 - 254 - 4m 15 sec & 126K = 4580 - 76m 20 sec

Skiff - 15K m/3 - 546 - 9m 6 sec & 126K = 4591 - 76m 30 sec
Mack - 28K m/3 - 1278 - 21m 20 sec & 126K = 5753 - 95m 54 sec
Hulk - 8,5K m/3 - 270 - 4m 30 sec & 126K = 4006 - 66m 45 sec

So, let's run a few comparisons here:

Retriever has 96% yield and 24.7% of the tank compared to a Procurer ... but it has two lasers! It must be better, right? Roll

Covetor has 0.2% more yield and 17% of the tank that a Skiff has so, all you are buying between the two is a tank and a drone bay ... which yeah, can be a good thing .... but look at the cost difference?
Covetor is 13.6% of the cost, should we be cultivating a mentality of throw away ships where alts die and no cares were given?

Anyway, will get back to this thread when I have had more sleep.

The essential things to a miner are

- Tank = time to live until help arrives
- Tank = ability to deal with rats
- Tank = time for other miners to help apply drones
- Yield = ISK
- ISK = ability to throw away ships or go do something fun

Currently, yield vs tank but yield differences aren't much vs tank differences.

Arrow I would rather have "dock or die" vs "stand and fight" playstyles with yield vs nimbleness to warp.


I think you might want to re-check your yield numbers there, because those don't look right. Retriever and Procurer (and Mack and Skiff) should have equal unfitted m3/time stats; given 1x DCU and the rest of the lows with MLUs the Retriever should actually slightly out-mine a Procurer, due to an extra lowslot for another MLU, while the Mack and Skiff should be equal with 3 lowslots each.

In ore/minute, without including drones, using 1x DCU and the other lowslots as MLU IIs I get the following (All level 5 skills, Modulated Strip Miner II, T2 Veldspar crystal):

Mining Barges:
Procurer - 993 m3/min
Retriever - 1,083 m3/min
Covetor - 1,341 m3/min

Exhumers:
Skiff - 1,203 m3/min
Mackinaw - 1,203 m3/min
Hulk - 1,578 m3/min
Jenshae Chiroptera
#15 - 2015-03-01 19:20:29 UTC
Fitte ships tank + yield.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-03-01 20:33:38 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Just put a POS up in wh space and mine until you can't mine no more. The expected thrill of dual statics is wearing off and they folks are leaving them empty again. The NPC data/relic sites are losing thier luster (too little isk for the amount of times you get dunked by dscan immune recons).

Anyway - for various reasons, wh space is clearing out. Come mine there. Best ore and minimal risk. No really. Sure you'll lose some ships and pods, but overall you'll come out way ahead.

Send me a mail and we'll talk about it.

I'd say overall the mining ships are pretty balanced atm. The last set of changes were one of the better changes to the game in some time.

PS if you can also harvest gas (makes silly phone signal w/ hand) call me!


Agreed in terms of ship role right now. I still think Covetor/ Hulk need a role bonus because none is a blatant gimp but it really doesn't matter to me. Skiff/ Mackinaw in High Sec works. Skiff for Scordite, it holds 100K and takes 12.5 minutes to fill, Mackinaw holds 100K Plag, takes around half an hr to fill. I don't over analyze the math or TMI my own brain, I just roll with what looks sensible.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#17 - 2015-03-01 22:39:01 UTC
This is currently how we are using mining ships in Null Sec.

Primarily - Procurers and Skiffs

Macks, Retrievers and Covetors haven't got the memo, interceptors and things from worm holes can warp too fast, need something to live a little bit for help to arrive.
(Can everyone be serious - no combat people are going to sit and asteroid camp miners - so ships need tank or the shield bubble idea to buy time for help to get there.)

Procurers when we have a lot of red activity and serious hot droppers, we can kill some but an hour or two and you have paid for your ship.

Hulks if everything is very blue, we have PVPers ratting for extra ISK and it is a mining operation.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#18 - 2015-03-02 04:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rawketsled
Change the mining mechanics first.

Don't change any ship stats, mining rates, or refine yields until mining isn't so

mind

numbingly


boring.


I've had great fun working out the most efficient mining setup. I know what to mine, in what ship, and how much that will earn. But I honestly can't be bothered undocking a barge when everything else in this game is more interesting to do.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#19 - 2015-03-02 05:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
I like mining for that reason.
Can deal with some "paper work" in game, discuss plans, socialise with the alliance / corp, get some other things done on the other machine, check these forums, dot down some ideas.
All while earning some ISK and helping to build up some things.

It can be a very social activity.
I do pity the miners that are in one man corps with no friends and only one screen.
I know that I would not mine if some silly mini-game was added.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#20 - 2015-03-02 05:47:37 UTC
With all this talk of ship yields and balance we've missed the big elephant in the room: The ores below highsec don't offer enough increased reward for their increased risk.

Look at the ore values. The average value of the six highsec ores is about 165k ISK per thousand m3. The best ore found anywhere in the game is currently Hedbergite and worth about 202k ISK per thousand m3. That's only 22% more. (There is more +5% and +10% stuff in lower sec status space; but that really doesn't contribute much.) But people aren't going to mine only the creme de la creme. These H-ores yield most of their value in the form of higher value minerals (Nox, Zyd, and Mega). These are not in short supply. If you talk to cap-ship builders they'll tell you that they need more Pyerite; whose main source is found everywhere. The real value of mining in null or w-space is only marginally better than mining in highsec. The reasons for doing so have more to do with logistics than anything else.

If you want to get more miners into low and null than you have to look at the reward side of the equation. They either need to buff the amount of low-end minerals gleaned from low/null sec ores (without decreasing the high-end mineral yields), or make different version of the same ore types with radically improved yields which are found in more remote space. I'm more partial to the second option. In another thread this was posted,
Lienzo wrote:
We all know that high-end ores just aren't worth that much generally. You could charge 10x the price on megacyte, and it would only increase the cost of a typical t1 hull by 2%. The real value here isn't scarcity, but human labor on extraction and movement. Therefore, I propose that we inflate the 5% and 10% variants to a more considerable density increase. I would suggest 50% and 100% respectively. Low density ABCs could be spawned in empire, while higher density ores would cluster in less secure space.
The rest of his "Infinite belt" idea was crap; but I think this part was excellent. Make 95% of the scordite found in highsec be of the plain variety, most in lowsec be of the +50% variety, and most in null and w-space the +100% variety. That would make giving up yield-fitted Hulks and Orca bonus worth it. The base-yields would have to be nerfed to compensate.

I would also be tempted by ultra rare, ultra high-value asteroids. The Prospect needs a reason to exist. It was clearly designed to go out into dangerous space to hunt down small-volume, high-value stuff. The chronicle article Nocxium offers inspiration for what this could be: Pure Mineral Asteroids. Imagine a asteroid named "Pure Tritanium" from which your Miner IIs extracted their usually volume of material in the form of the refined mineral. Versions would exist all of the seven basic minerals. Obviously they would be extremely rare, with exponentially increasing rarity for the high value minerals. Perhaps 1-in-1000 asteriods below highsec would be pure tritanium, 1-in-2000 pyerite, 1-in-4000 mexallon, and so on. I'm getting horny just thinking about it. Such extremely rare and valuable things should normally be invisible to overview and only detectable with a survey scanner (even misreport it to the client so that players can't use a special program to be alerted when a specific graphics mesh is loaded). Mining frigates and exploration ships searching the belts for these gems would have to decloak long enough to do a scan. This concept would make covert mining expeditions very, very appealing.
(This is a more refined version of an idea I posted while on a rambling tangent in a custom paint-job thread.)
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