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[Scylla] Ishtars

First post First post
Author
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-02-27 10:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
In Scylla we are deploying a set of high-impact balance changes.

This thread is for discussing a proposed changed to the Ishtar. We are planning to split it's drone damage bonus in to two bonuses so that we can lower the bonus to sentry damage. It would look like this:

Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage

This change is being made to encourage diversity in ship choice across EVE. The Ishtar has proven strong enough with its current bonus set to dominate in many environments and we want to make sure there is plenty of room for ship choice other than the Ishtar. We came to this decision using a combination of internal metrics, community feedback and by using EFT like everyone else.

Too much? Too little? Let us know.

@ccp_rise

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2015-02-27 10:55:53 UTC
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-02-27 11:02:16 UTC
To be honst I think that the dps itself was not the problem but rather the ability to deploy sentries and GTFO.

Anyway lets just see what impact this change has on isthars online.
Kailen Thorn
Volition Cult
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2015-02-27 11:03:31 UTC
Will this not just hurt the small scale gangs employing sentries as their meta?

If a blob has sentries deployed, the damage Nerf is not going to matter as they will use their numbers to kill the target anyway. Maybe slow down capital deaths by a few seconds

Is this a knee jerk reaction to a graph? The damage is massive because the wide spread use of massive. Make them less good in another way and that overall damage will drop as someone else takes the FOTM
Capqu
Half Empty
skill urself
#5 - 2015-02-27 11:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
17% damage reduction doesn't seem like it will fix the massive imbalance in damage done

when the drake got gutted them main thing targeted was application, and i think you should look at that for the ishtar too

its simply too good at all different kinds of ranges

bouncers have crazy range and tracking at that range
gardes have battleship damage and cruiser tracking and scorch range
pve wise wasps have frigate tracking and battleship damage and you can be afk and have warpcore stabs fit so there really isnt any reason to use any other ship [other than a vexor navy because its the same thing but cheaper LOL]

honestly 17% damage off the top of the sentry part seems irrelevant in on a ship which had battleship damage and yet its main imbalance is was flexibility

why can it fit and run 100mn AB with no fitting mods btw? it has fitting/cap regen for guns yet does not need to fit them, i think addressing this would help

edit: im not suggesting gutting it like the drake, which was clearly terrible and resulted in a bad ship [and weapon sysem]
but i do think harsher treatment is necessary here
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#6 - 2015-02-27 11:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Swanky nutjob
Why did you not nerf it's tracking? The damage it's done is exponentially higher than everything else but not just because it can deal plenty of damage with a BS sized weapon system, but because it can hit too well with them against a majority of targets. Reducing sentry tracking would have answered both problems.

Also, please do something about it's fitting, the ship is far to easy to fit.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#7 - 2015-02-27 11:11:01 UTC
Quote:
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.


Was about to post the same.
The damage is not the problem, but the damage projection over crazy ranges.
Removing the sentry bonus entirely, would be my suggestion, too.
(And mabye descrease the fitting capabilites a little)
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-27 11:12:51 UTC
drone bay is still too big
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#9 - 2015-02-27 11:18:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.


This
Aladar Dangerface
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-02-27 11:18:45 UTC
Projection is the issue, step in the right direcion but not far enough

I don't need twitter. I'm already following you.

Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#11 - 2015-02-27 11:19:09 UTC
This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.

In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.

Anthar Thebess
#12 - 2015-02-27 11:28:31 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage


Good direction.
But i think something more can be done.

Old bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

New bonus: Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Light, Medium and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage
10% bonus to Garde hitpoints and damage
[/quote]

So no bonus to Wardens / Curators / Bouncers at all.
If we move to specific type bonus we can have much bigger possibilities for specific hulls , and make amarr ships have additional bonus to EM drones, Caldari to Kinetic , and minmatar to Bouncers.

This could put life to many not used ships.

Ishtars are OP , but also provide good hull for smaller alliances in terms of structure grinding.
Garde range , or should i say lack of it , will keep isthars viable dps platforms for structure grinding while removing almost all what made them broken now.

Corben Arctus
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#13 - 2015-02-27 11:31:26 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.

In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.



This.
Luscius Uta
#14 - 2015-02-27 11:41:03 UTC
Sentry and heavy drones are often wieved as Battleship-sized "weapons" and ability to field them as a reason to Ishtar's imbalance. However, 125 m^3 drone bandwidth and 10 %/level bonus to drone damage and HP enough cannot be that reason, as it's also present on plenty of other (non-unbalanced) ships, including the old Ishtar. It's the new sentry specific bonus that broke Ishtar.

So I would revert the Ishtar to its pre-HAC rebalance version which wasn't broken but was still a great, dedicated droneboat, meaning that bandwidth and damage should stay to be the same but sentry and heavy-specific bonuses should go away.
Few things (compared to its old version) I would still change though - give it a bit more CPU as I remember it being terribly low and replace the drone bay bonus (which should be implemented to the hull itself) with a drone microwarpdrive velocity (5% per HAC skill level) bonus. Otherwise everyone will just switch to VNIs.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Arla Sarain
#15 - 2015-02-27 11:57:46 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.

In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.


This again.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#16 - 2015-02-27 11:58:49 UTC
Good start!

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#17 - 2015-02-27 12:04:58 UTC
It seems that this won't change much in that a 17% reduction in dps mean that the blobs will simply bring 20% more ishtars just to be sure.

Perhaps drop the damage and hitpoints bonus from sentries entirely and instead apply it as a velocity and tracking bonus to heavies. This would put the emphasis on using mobile drones that makes sense given the mobility of the hull and give more of a reason to use heavies since they would be nearer to mediums in speed and tracking but the hull would need to be at greater risk to make use of them.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-02-27 12:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
baltec1 wrote:
Would rather have seen the ishtar lose the sentries entirely.

Seriously. Wouldn't swopping Ishtar/Eos to Heavies/Sentries pretty much fire this problem into the sun? Clearly you'll have thought of and dismissed this, its just hard to see the reasoning.

Travelling at the speed of love.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2015-02-27 12:08:02 UTC
do something to push it toward armour tanking
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-02-27 12:10:24 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
do something to push it toward armour tanking


A mid to a low would do that nicely.
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