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Changes to the remote capital aid systems

Author
Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2015-02-18 08:44:11 UTC
Can CSM members promote this idea - so we can have one issue solved.

Capital Combat ships divide by 2 base types :
- DPS
- Logistic

Dps are dreads.
In order to boost their damage they need to use siege module that enhances their dps output at the cost tracking, scan resolution and especially ability to receive remote reps.

Logistic are carriers.
Like dreads they can boost their logistic abilities by using triage module that have also similar rule - while module is active ship cannot receive remote AID.

Overall this looks like good balance.
Still players proved that CCP was wrong in this assumption in case of carriers.

Currently one of the eve MAJOR issues are carrier blobs that abuse ability to provide remote aid to whole fleet without triage, as while keeping their full offensive potential, and ability to refit on field, they can also provide logistic support to other ships without triage.

This way 200 man carrier fleet means ability to :
- deploy up to 2000 fighters
- drop up to 2000 sentry drones
- mount up to 400 smartbombs ( base concepts use 2 per carrier)
- mount up to 400 heavy neuts
while at the same time still keeping ability to provide remote aid from up to 597 capital remote AID modules to a single member of the fleet.

Because of this amount of ships needed just to brake this remote tank , and then slowly chew multi million ehp is so immense that it requires extreme blob of sub capitals supported by capital ships. Usually counter fleet have to be so immense that "soul crushing lag" will occur.

It is very simple way to solve this issue as the issue is connected to capital remote aid systems.

Proposal is to :
- remove bonus they get from hull without triage module active
- reduce their base abilities to match Large versions.
- boost triage module bonuses to counter those nerfs


Thanks to those changes the only viable way to use capital remote aid systems will be by using triage module with all the benefits and cons that come with this module. Without changing how the carriers behave in triage.

Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2015-02-20 15:05:01 UTC
Once you are going against 200 man capital fleets, dreads have the ability to alpha carriers off the field very easily. A hundred battleships can alpha a carrier. Additionally, the current siege module doesn't nerf tracking, at all. What about supers? By folding the hull bonuses into triage, which super carriers can't fit, you lose any benefit of being immune to ewar when it comes to fleet repairing. Your proposed changes would utterly gut the carrier class because you can't handle dealing with 200 man capital blobs. Fleet repair becomes exceedingly difficult in lowsec for small gangs. And repairing structures will demand a support fleet, because no sane pilot will use a non triaged carrier solo when a t2 cruiser will out rep it and be less vulnerable.

Instead of demanding that the ships be nerfed, try looking at the mechanics of remote rep instead. I can assure you that being unable to kill a ship under massed repair isn't an issue only dealt by capital ships. Guardian chains can be just as infuriating to subcaps.
Anthar Thebess
#3 - 2015-02-24 14:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Rosal Milag wrote:
Once you are going against 200 man capital fleets, dreads have the ability to alpha carriers off the field very easily. A hundred battleships can alpha a carrier. Additionally, the current siege module doesn't nerf tracking, at all. What about supers? By folding the hull bonuses into triage, which super carriers can't fit, you lose any benefit of being immune to ewar when it comes to fleet repairing. Your proposed changes would utterly gut the carrier class because you can't handle dealing with 200 man capital blobs. Fleet repair becomes exceedingly difficult in lowsec for small gangs. And repairing structures will demand a support fleet, because no sane pilot will use a non triaged carrier solo when a t2 cruiser will out rep it and be less vulnerable.

Instead of demanding that the ships be nerfed, try looking at the mechanics of remote rep instead. I can assure you that being unable to kill a ship under massed repair isn't an issue only dealt by capital ships. Guardian chains can be just as infuriating to subcaps.


Sorry but already tried to do it in few hundred battleship fleet. You cannot alpha carrier so easily.
Tried to do the same with dreads - no TIDI , it just don't work.

As for structure repping - try ospreys , they can pump shield like non triaged carrier.
Rosal Milag
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-02-27 15:28:37 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Rosal Milag wrote:
snip


Sorry but already tried to do it in few hundred battleship fleet. You cannot alpha carrier so easily.
Tried to do the same with dreads - no TIDI , it just don't work.

As for structure repping - try ospreys , they can pump shield like non triaged carrier.



You are referencing 200 man carrier blobs. If sentry fire from these is too coordinated for a 200 man battleship gang, it's not the mechanics that are the problem, it's the pilots and target calling. 200 Maelstroms can alpha a 2 million ehp target. 40 Moros can volley a 2 million ehp target. 30 Naglfars can blap a 2.1 million ehp target. And if you are suggesting that you don't have the pilots to field 40+ dreads against 200 carriers? You need your head examined. 200 anything will destroy 40 or less of the same weight class, cap vs cap, cruiser vs cruiser, etc. Also, who fights a 200 carrier blob with just battleships? One battleship does not equate one carrier in k-space. Fighting a 200 carrier blob? Bring 200 carriers.

As far as ospreys, no. With your plan a single nidhoggur will rep for half the amount a 4 large shield rep osprey (12.5% per level) will, with capital reps, for half the range. Which means that a 10 million isk cruiser is more valuable for structures than the ships made to rep structures. Currently, a nidhoggur, without triage can output 2065 shield per second and remain stable. An osprey can do just shy of 500 and needs a lot of sacrifices to be cap stable and fit 4 large reps. Gutting the non triaged reps will prevent any small groups from being able to rep their structures in a reasonable length of time. Did you scale down your concept at all? Did you think of the 20 man fleets? The corporations with less than 50 players?

The problem is, you are confusing scale with mechanics. Yes, at 200+ numbers, carriers are extremely powerful and hard to beat. You need to examine why this is. With 200 pilots, even the nidhoggur of the prior example, can spider tank with the gutted reps. 384 shield/s across 200 ships? More than enough to make a difference that you will not appreciate.
Skymea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-03-06 18:07:37 UTC
I agree with Rosal. His points are valid.

Delusions of Adequacy - Get Off My Lawn

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-03-08 01:12:31 UTC
dont worry, dreads will be removed soon as they have no ability other than damage dealing, carriers will be reduced to one highslot and no dronebay, supers are already slated for a change to have 0 in-fleet ability besides arbitrary stat bonuses, and titans, well titans are busses that should have been removed long ago as they really dont serve any psychological factor like they used to, they arent a serious DPS or fleet support factor ongrid, just brick houses of EHP that for the large part can be ignored unless your fleet is mostly caps, then MAYBE they have enough to alpha carriers/supers off before reps, but not much else
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-03-08 05:58:09 UTC
This whine is weak. A blob of carriers can be alphaed off the field with a much smaller blob of dreads worth only a tiny fraction in total isk compared to the carrier blob they're killing. Sure, you're going to lose dreads, but that's working as intended. Did you want to kill capital blobs with cruisers, and be able to burn off at the earliest sign of trouble and lose nothing? Now that's unbalanced.
Alien Machine
Jurkens Lotion Corp
#8 - 2015-03-24 14:29:22 UTC
All of your assumptions are assuming you're dealing with 200 men with carriers, if that is such the case.... I'm in terrible feels for who the hell you pissed off.


Taking your logic hand in hand, just drop in 200 Titians. Now what is your issue ? 1 DD is 1 carrier GONE no hope or savoir. Carriers just look scary, they are but 200 dreads can put a dent against them easily. Your sub-caps are just that, sub-par. I don't want a BS killing my carrier, your BS is for supporting your capital fleet getting rid of the things that we don't really care about so we can support our capital fleet against, other capitals. Plus if you have a jammer you can jam a carrier, der der der, no more REPS from that guy. Carriers can also be neuted out, trust me that hurts the cap chain seriously.

I honestly hate people who want changes when they're not willing to step away from a problem and look at it and solve it via in game mechanics. Troll.



Now how to really win against logi ? Bring in your jams boy. They want jam for their toast. They also like being neuted out, very effective. If you pvp any you're likely carrying a neut, if not, refit it and then go back. Or re-plan your fleet so you're covered, or just warp away in general.

I'm just another shy guy

Skymea
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-03-24 14:37:03 UTC
The bhaalgorns are coming, the bhaalgorn are coming!

Delusions of Adequacy - Get Off My Lawn

Anthar Thebess
#10 - 2015-03-24 14:41:25 UTC
[quote=Alien Machine]
Taking your logic hand in hand, just drop in 200 Titians. Now what is your issue ? 1 DD is 1 carrier GONE no hope or savoir. Carriers just look scary, they are but 200 dreads can put a dent against them easily./quote]

The whole eve is not about "I need bigger ship to counter your big ships".
BTW, dread blob against carrier blob don't work.
How many coalitions can deploy 200 titans?

Carriers remote rep them self, dreads cannot have any remote aid.

Neuting carrier fleet?
So i drop 200 neuting armagedons against 200 carriers : 1 per carrier.
My armagedons cannot cap them self , and will run out of cap pretty soon. Carriers will be using gardes to kill neuting ships.
While those Armageddons will not do any real harm to carriers in terms of dps - so i need other dps ships.
Wait , local is already at 400 and i still not have dps fleet deployed?

No this will not work this way either.

Issue is that even reinforced nodes are unable to compute amount of ships needed to kill slowcat fleet.
InsaneJoe
Sphincter Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#11 - 2015-04-02 17:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: InsaneJoe
If you dropped a dread blob on a carrier blob and lost you ain't doin something right.... Sieged dreads will nuke carriers every time so unless your going one on one (which is the epitome of stupidity in a fleet fight) you really need to fire your dread pilots and get new ones Twisted. You also need numbers, like it's been stated you don't need a massive dread blob to win but at the same time you can't throw a handful of dreads at them and expect everything to go in your favor. And yes neuting carriers does work, Armageddons are ideal anti cap ships since they got the remake into neut boats. You just need to learn to use them properly instead of 1 on 1 only as your using to argue your misguided point -_- 1 neut boat against 1 carrier just makes the carrier pilot laugh and go hey that tickles as it crushes your Armageddon with its fighters...
Edit....
throwing battleships against a carrier blob without dread support is just asking to be humiliated
Anthar Thebess
#12 - 2015-04-02 22:22:08 UTC
InsaneJoe wrote:
If you dropped a dread blob on a carrier blob and lost you ain't doin something right.... Sieged dreads will nuke carriers every time so unless your going one on one (which is the epitome of stupidity in a fleet fight) you really need to fire your dread pilots and get new ones Twisted. You also need numbers, like it's been stated you don't need a massive dread blob to win but at the same time you can't throw a handful of dreads at them and expect everything to go in your favor. And yes neuting carriers does work, Armageddons are ideal anti cap ships since they got the remake into neut boats. You just need to learn to use them properly instead of 1 on 1 only as your using to argue your misguided point -_- 1 neut boat against 1 carrier just makes the carrier pilot laugh and go hey that tickles as it crushes your Armageddon with its fighters...
Edit....
throwing battleships against a carrier blob without dread support is just asking to be humiliated

Nodes are the issue ... my dread was cycling guns for dozen of minutes , firing but not using ammo and not doing any damage. On paper concept looks good,but only on paper
InsaneJoe
Sphincter Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#13 - 2015-04-03 03:01:14 UTC
The only dread that doesn't use ammo per se is the Revelation, other then that you had to be using ammo cause either the server doesn't let you activate anything at all (wouldn't be the first time I've run across that) or everything works fine and you aren't paying attention. I've seen dread blobs butcher carrier groups so it doesn't look good "on paper" it actually works. You just cannot or will not do it properly from the degree of how much it isn't your fault your throwing out there...
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-04-20 10:43:19 UTC
InsaneJoe wrote:
I've seen dread blobs butcher carrier groups so it doesn't look good "on paper" it actually works.

Show me battlereport.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-04-20 11:30:50 UTC
Rosal Milag wrote:
200 Maelstroms can alpha a 2 million ehp target. 40 Moros can volley a 2 million ehp target. 30 Naglfars can blap a 2.1 million ehp target.

EFT warrior detected.
On contrary, I've been in those fleets. It takes one spy in your teamspeak and/or fleet, and your target is known long before dreads can lock it. Tank goes overheated, reps pre-activated, and all those salvos barely scratch the armor.
With TIDI 10% you can only hope to destroy a couple of slowpokes after hours of "fight". And that is the best case. In worst case, you lose all your dreads without even loading the grid. Seen it during Halloween war in HED-GP.

And even (I mean even) if you can hit through carriers, what would you do with motherships? Field 600 Naglfars? Been there, seen that. Your guns dont work, your siege runs endless cycle, soul crashing lags and absolutely shity gameplay.
Zaphod Amphal
EVE Corporation 14090737
#16 - 2015-04-22 02:27:03 UTC
I wish more people would realize this. It's one thing to face a single or a handful of carriers but another entirely to try to take out even a single one in large fleets.
Anthar Thebess
#17 - 2015-07-01 08:25:17 UTC
Bring the balanceBig smile!
Anthar Thebess
#18 - 2015-09-09 08:56:32 UTC
Keep this not auto locked, support needed.
Fuzy Sidwell
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-11-25 09:01:05 UTC
lol your making me Snicker and ROFL
200 man Capital Fleet Gets out matched by a 200 man Capital Fleet its simple you bring your Carriers and your Overly impressive 2-3k dps Other person brings there 200 Man Alpha Dread Fleet sit at 80+k off you before your Fighters are out every 13.3 Seconds you loose 1-2 carriers which travel time will make you down to 190 Carriers before arriving to shoot at one dread by the time your Amazing 475000 Dps kills 1 Dread your dps is dropping and dropping by the time you kill 1 dread your down to 188 Carriers by the time you killed 100 dreads your in the negative of 25 carriers so wheres this unbeatable win
That is based off of 200 Nags Vs 200 Thani`s
keep in mind Dreads have more then 2x the dps to 1 carrier with out really trying or Sacrificing Tank
and if you wana know a fleet of 350 Machariels and 50 Basis could turn your carrier fleet into nothing but a pile of wrecks for me to salvage
B0RG 0VERLORD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2015-12-20 12:30:47 UTC
ccp work on 4 principals...
A: If its Useful - Give it Aids
B: if its working - Break it
C: If its Broken - Leave it
D: If its a Rorqual - Forget it

Does CCP mean crap coding people