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Missions, NPC protection & Contracts (bounties and escorts)

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2015-02-10 23:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Missions

A concern raised is that they do not encourage team play. An example of a fix for this would be a mission that has a jump gate, allows only up to cruisers, blocks T3 cruisers and has too much damage for any solo cruiser to tank and the NPCs have too much tank for any solo cruiser to break.

Means you need two logi and a few damage ships.

Same can be done for large ships with tougher missions or frigates limited.

Bounties

Work similar to courier contracts, you accept it, have a time limit and need to kill someone in a ship with a value greater than X.
A type of kill right would be granted and can be transfered by anyone that has died to anyone else.

Players escorting players.

Much like a courier contract, you go from A to B with the player, they need to dock up and so do you in the destination system.
If they dock up sooner then the escort needs to accept that (maybe they told them to get safe)
If they do not accept the docking in a different station then the escort gets paid.
Notifications go both ways.

Low Sec NPCs

Depending on your faction standing, system you are in and such, NPCs would try to repair and fight with someone that was attacked.
They would be destructable and much like rats. So, some help but not be Condord gods of space.

Please note, just jotting these down in a rough draft from discussions I am having with some people in game. Rough ideas.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Alistrina Sassoire
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-02-10 23:42:26 UTC
Although so much of Eve Online is top notch I do feel that the missions are pretty basic. I think we're missing out on a huge opportunity, and could really wow newcomers to Eve with something spectacular. That would then feed into the rest of the game giving everyone a big benefit. Taking, for instance, the SoE epic arc, it really is actually quite tedious. Although there is a story and so (not that I really read too much of it) on it is a lot of travelling around, blowing up some ships here and there and not really much more than stuff that gets tedious very quickly. It's not really an ideal intro to the high sec missioning aspect of the game. I think a lot of work could go into figuring out what is possible and how best to approach it, more than I can do in a simple post. But The ideas Jenshae has put forwards sound like they could be the start of some possibilities. Missions need to avoid the grind factor and bring some wow factor into them to make people want to do them for the sake of them, not just for the isk rewards.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2015-02-11 00:26:40 UTC
Isn't the first part just describing incursions?

(And if the rats are impossible for any kind of solo cruiser to break, they're going to be equally impossible for those few damage ships if they're cheaply fit or low skilled. You're talking about a ludicrously wide range of DPS and tank, especially if you get into battleships and the like with the tougher missions.)

The bounties thing really doesn't work. If someone in highsec puts a bounty on me to get someone to kill me in a ship worth more than 200 mil, for example, who is actually going to claim that? It's very rare I fly a ship of any real value outside of a fleet. I imagine this is true for a lot of people. You'd just end up with a mechanic that did nothing, like the old system.

The escort thing would never be used for anything that wasn't a scam.

And the NPCs, no. Just no. NPCs should not be replacing players, if you want logi in lowsec, bring some.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#4 - 2015-02-11 00:36:29 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
1) Isn't the first part just describing incursions?
2) The bounties thing really doesn't work.
3) The escort thing would never be used for anything that wasn't a scam.
4) And the NPCs, no. Just no. NPCs should not be replacing players, if you want logi in lowsec, bring some.

1) Call it mini-newbie-incursions if that makes you happy.
2) It requires good intel and reasonable bounties.
3) I think it could be ironned out. (too tired right now to run through all the snags)
4) Give me the run down on why you think low sec is such an empty waste land and how to fix that.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-02-11 00:44:13 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
1) Isn't the first part just describing incursions?
2) The bounties thing really doesn't work.
3) The escort thing would never be used for anything that wasn't a scam.
4) And the NPCs, no. Just no. NPCs should not be replacing players, if you want logi in lowsec, bring some.

1) Call it mini-newbie-incursions if that makes you happy.
2) It requires good intel and reasonable bounties.
3) I think it could be ironned out. (too tired right now to run through all the snags)
4) Give me the run down on why you think low sec is such an empty waste land and how to fix that.



1) Those are called 'scout sites'. Can't say I've tried them myself since they got buffed, but I'm told they're not worth the money.

2) Both of which are far greater requirements than the current system. When do you see your system being used over the current one?

3) If the escort has to pay a collateral, the person being escorted will lead them directly into a gatecamp. If the opposite is true, then the escort will lead their mark directly into a gatecamp. If there's no collateral, there's no way to prevent your escort from ganking you themselves and stealing whatever you thought was valuable enough for an escort in the first place.

4) I'm not a lowsec player. I am simply stating that NPCs should not fill player's roles. If you want logi, make a friend, bring corpmate or hire a merc. Don't expect NPCs to do it for you.

Can you give us a rundown on why you think NPC logi would fix the perceived issue? (Bearing in mind that both sides of the fight will have it.)
Alistrina Sassoire
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-02-11 00:50:09 UTC
This is about providing some variety to high sec missions. They have a part to play in the game. At the moment they don't have enough variety. It's not about replacing low sec fleets with npcs, clearly. There is a huge gulf between incursions and missions at the moment. And huge potential for smaller groups to have something to do together against npcs and also solo with npcs for variety instead of the standard shoot up a group of npcs gameplay. Unless you want to remove any form of npc from the game and not have any missions then it makes sense. A lot of people want to form smaller groups. There should be more than one way we're allowed to play the game, it is a sandbox after all.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#7 - 2015-02-11 00:51:06 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
1) Those are called 'scout sites'. Can't say I've tried them myself since they got buffed, but I'm told they're not worth the money.
2) Both of which are far greater requirements than the current system. When do you see your system being used over the current one?
3 (Putting aside for tonight)
4) I'm not a lowsec player. I am simply stating that NPCs should not fill player's roles. If you want logi, make a friend, bring corpmate or hire a merc. Don't expect NPCs to do it for you.

Can you give us a rundown on why you think NPC logi would fix the perceived issue? (Bearing in mind that both sides of the fight will have it.)

1) You said it, "not worth the money" I also mean a more complete set of parallel missions, so people are asking around for people to help them, meet each other and form networks.
2) Active hunting. As it is now, people just know someone died. It is meaningless, undirected inevitabilities.
3) Putting aside for tonight.
4) Concord is retribution, not protection. Destructable protection would alter some of the straight up ganking and entice people into low sec. The fear is they will always be out numbered. The NPCs would only try help those attacked. Checking who is linked in fleet and other sorcery is possible.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Alistrina Sassoire
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-11 00:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alistrina Sassoire
I don't think anyone is suggesting there should be NPC logis in player battles.

Edit: Ok, maybe I misread that, but it could work in certain cirumstances.
Alistrina Sassoire
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-02-11 00:57:28 UTC
I think it's a good idea that we are more connectd with NPC corps, if people are in them. There is a lot of potential for an NPC corp to be something far more than it is at present. If you work for a corp they should protect you in certain situations, and in that situation it's not unreasonable to see an npc logi protecting someone of great value to them. It would certainly help balance things out viz a viz the imbalance of the ease of ganking someone and the difficulty in preventing that from happening. If we can support an npc corp and they can support us back then that can help add a new dynamic to the game instead of npc corps that don't actually do anything.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2015-02-11 01:34:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Missions



CCP wil likely be expanding burner missions

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Bounties


Can be abused and gamed.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Escorting players.


NO to escorts. If you want protection get other players to provide it.

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Low Sec NPCs


Again NO. If you want logi then get other players.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#11 - 2015-02-11 02:32:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bounties. Can be abused and gamed.
It is between players. A lot of EVE works on reputation. The thing is to set it in such a way. "35M if you kill them in a battle cruiser" for example. If it works out as scamming, then there is a new level to scams.
baltec1 wrote:
NO to escorts. If you want protection get other players to provide it..
That is the point. Merc escorts. Again, a lot of it would be a matter of reputation.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#12 - 2015-02-11 02:39:26 UTC
It may just be my experiences in game but I see no advantage to most of this so in general I give this a -1.

#1 Missions
I routinely run level 3 missions solo in a Vexor Navy issue that my newer corp mates have trouble running in a groups of 2 or 3 using standard vexes. ISK, skills and all that making the difference so I fail to see how this part of your idea is going to work out.
Even with that as a background I could still support this idea as long as it was made optional in the same way the current burner missions are so a player does not suffer a standing penalty for refusing.

Bounties.
-1 the game does not need another mechanic that can be abused or gamed.
-1 because of the hassles it would cause with Concord responses and how to handle them.

Escort.
-1 as baltec1 pointed out far to easy to game or abuse.
Add to that what are they going to "escort" them through? more NPC content?

Low Sec NPC.
Neither yes or no on this one.
No because we need to encourage players to gather together and it is my opinion that this would discourage that.
Yes because I never run missions in low sec anyway so no matter which way this goes it will not affect me.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#13 - 2015-02-11 02:45:19 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
....
Missions, it would be a matter of being too difficult for a solo ship to complete and limiting ship type access.
Everyone can get two rewards instead of one, say something decent and something extra like a Meta 2 module.

If they escort them, the player is paying, so two people aren't making more ISK, they are just arguing over it between each other.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-02-11 10:13:31 UTC
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#15 - 2015-02-11 13:55:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Maybe limit to T1 cruisers then?
*Sings* "There is a hole in my bucket!"

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Madeleine Lemmont
Ars Vivendi
#16 - 2015-02-11 16:39:50 UTC
You won't find enough votes for more NPC engagement. I already tried it... ;)

Escorts should be providet and took over via contracts. Contracts for "service search" and contracts for "service providing". "Security contracts" also could replace the present bounty system.

In order to reduce abuse (scam), the contract system should contain a rating system too. Yes, I know also a rating system could be compromised by alt char spams. But hey, that you'll find in RL too. So far nothing new.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2015-02-11 22:49:18 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Maybe limit to T1 cruisers then?
*Sings* "There is a hole in my bucket!"



Faction cruisers ARE T1 cruisers. And even if you limit it to nothing but vanilla T1 stuff, vets with T2 or higher gear on them are going to be so far ahead of newbies in meta fits that the problem is the same. One veteran in a specific fit can do things four or five newbies in babby's first thorax can. You cannot balance something like this in a meaningful way.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#18 - 2015-02-11 23:11:22 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Maybe limit to T1 cruisers then?
*Sings* "There is a hole in my bucket!"



Faction cruisers ARE T1 cruisers. And even if you limit it to nothing but vanilla T1 stuff, vets with T2 or higher gear on them are going to be so far ahead of newbies in meta fits that the problem is the same. One veteran in a specific fit can do things four or five newbies in babby's first thorax can. You cannot balance something like this in a meaningful way.


My gila is a t1 cruiser technically with t1 drones technically yet it can easily eat a DED 5/10 combat anomoly...limiting to tech I really doesn't mmake much difference :D

They got the sleeper cache sites right for exploration, they need something similarly dangerous for other PvE.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#19 - 2015-02-12 02:51:46 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Maybe limit to T1 cruisers then?
*Sings* "There is a hole in my bucket!"
Faction cruisers ARE T1 cruisers. And even if you limit it to nothing but vanilla T1 stuff, vets with T2 or higher gear on them are going to be so far ahead of newbies in meta fits that the problem is the same. One veteran in a specific fit can do things four or five newbies in babby's first thorax can. You cannot balance something like this in a meaningful way.
Remind me again why this veterans is getting shiny ships and fits to make half the ISK per hour or less?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#20 - 2015-02-12 03:13:05 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
But how do you make something too difficult for a 100mil SP vet in a blinged out faction or t2 cruiser that is not also impossible for four newbies in T1 fit T1 cruisers to complete?
Maybe limit to T1 cruisers then?
*Sings* "There is a hole in my bucket!"
Faction cruisers ARE T1 cruisers. And even if you limit it to nothing but vanilla T1 stuff, vets with T2 or higher gear on them are going to be so far ahead of newbies in meta fits that the problem is the same. One veteran in a specific fit can do things four or five newbies in babby's first thorax can. You cannot balance something like this in a meaningful way.
Remind me again why this veterans is getting shiny ships and fits to make half the ISK per hour or less?

Obviously you are not a serious mission runner.
We veteran mission runners use blinged out ships for ALL levels of missions for many reasons but these may be the most obvious reasons.
No matter how long you have been in the game there is always another NPC you want to fly missions for and since you have 0.0 standing you have to start at level 1's and the blinged ships make the grind that much faster. Especially the long haul from 3.0 for level 3's to the 5.0 needed for level 4's at an average change of about .06 per mission.

Going back to making the missions harder I really think you are not fully understanding the depth of the problem.
I can and often do use a blinged out Tristan as a level 3 ship for those times when I want a challenge, or I use an Ishkur if I want a slightly less intense challenge. A newer player moving up to level 3 missions for the first time in a full on T1 fit Vexor is not likely to be able to complete these same missions, at least not without a warp out to fix damage and possibly replace drones. Yes it is true that my Tristan is probably worth enough to buy 3 or 4 of those Vexes but the point still remains I can do what those new players cannot.
So as I said in my first post, make these more difficult mission optional and with higher payouts and I am good with them.



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