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Dreadnoughts and Carriers

Author
Kestral Anneto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-12-18 22:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kestral Anneto
I've noticed something that has me scratching my head.
Throughout the building progression of ships (frigs to destroyers to cruisers etc) the materials and skill requirements to sit in it and build it are always getting hard the further up the tree you go.
Then you hit Dreadnoughts and Carriers.
dreadnoughts take more material to build than a carriers, but require less training to sit in them, this applies to all races as far as I can see. Its not as if its a small increase either, its almost double to build a dreadnought.
Why is this? kind of throws the ship progression out of the window?
Aurra Jol
Aragosta
#2 - 2014-12-18 23:13:34 UTC
You need to not think of a 1:1 ratio of build skills compared to skills to sit and operate.

Carriers essentially are huge logistics ships. The skills for logistics pilots are vastly different than a DPS pilot would be in a battleship, battlecruiser or cruiser. Yes, they can use drones and fighters but those are the only methods of applying offensive DPS in a fight. Their true role is to repair shields, armor or hull and pass along capacitor to fleet members.

Dreadnaughts are meant for one role. Applying massive amounts of DPS at very large and usually immobile targets (to hit anything small they need to have the target webbed by other fleet members).

The skills for sitting and flying these ships are vastly different and along paths that do not intersect all that much.

As for building, I do not know how to answer that. The skill requirements are the same. The only thing that changes between these are the capital component requirements, but that is a BP difference, and not skill.

If you are looking into ship progression, you would be looking at the following:

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Titan (tech II varieties would be mixed into the class progression).

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier < Supercarrier
Abyss Azizora
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-12-19 07:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Abyss Azizora
Aurra Jol wrote:
You need to not think of a 1:1 ratio of build skills compared to skills to sit and operate.

Carriers essentially are huge logistics ships. The skills for logistics pilots are vastly different than a DPS pilot would be in a battleship, battlecruiser or cruiser. Yes, they can use drones and fighters but those are the only methods of applying offensive DPS in a fight. Their true role is to repair shields, armor or hull and pass along capacitor to fleet members.

Dreadnaughts are meant for one role. Applying massive amounts of DPS at very large and usually immobile targets (to hit anything small they need to have the target webbed by other fleet members).

The skills for sitting and flying these ships are vastly different and along paths that do not intersect all that much.

As for building, I do not know how to answer that. The skill requirements are the same. The only thing that changes between these are the capital component requirements, but that is a BP difference, and not skill.

If you are looking into ship progression, you would be looking at the following:

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Titan (tech II varieties would be mixed into the class progression).

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier < Supercarrier


Ugh no... Supercarriers would go between dreadnought and titan, they are not logistics platforms, at least not for a very long time. They are used for launching fighter-bombers to kill capital and super-capital ships.

This isn't to say you "can't" use them for logistics, just that they are not meant for that. Just like sticking remote reps on any non-bonused hull.

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Supercarrier < Titan

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#4 - 2014-12-19 12:39:42 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
This isn't to say you "can't" use them for logistics, just that they are not meant for that. Just like sticking remote reps on any non-bonused hull.

Except supercarriers do have remote rep bonuses, are meant for logistics and are frequently used as such.
Aurra Jol
Aragosta
#5 - 2014-12-21 01:12:00 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
You need to not think of a 1:1 ratio of build skills compared to skills to sit and operate.

Carriers essentially are huge logistics ships. The skills for logistics pilots are vastly different than a DPS pilot would be in a battleship, battlecruiser or cruiser. Yes, they can use drones and fighters but those are the only methods of applying offensive DPS in a fight. Their true role is to repair shields, armor or hull and pass along capacitor to fleet members.

Dreadnaughts are meant for one role. Applying massive amounts of DPS at very large and usually immobile targets (to hit anything small they need to have the target webbed by other fleet members).

The skills for sitting and flying these ships are vastly different and along paths that do not intersect all that much.

As for building, I do not know how to answer that. The skill requirements are the same. The only thing that changes between these are the capital component requirements, but that is a BP difference, and not skill.

If you are looking into ship progression, you would be looking at the following:

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Titan (tech II varieties would be mixed into the class progression).

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier < Supercarrier


Ugh no... Supercarriers would go between dreadnought and titan, they are not logistics platforms, at least not for a very long time. They are used for launching fighter-bombers to kill capital and super-capital ships.

This isn't to say you "can't" use them for logistics, just that they are not meant for that. Just like sticking remote reps on any non-bonused hull.

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Supercarrier < Titan

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier


Yes, the employment of supers in game is nearly always for maximum application of DPS via their fighterbombers. My statement regarding the tracks was in line with carriers and supers both rely heavily on drone (for fighters and bombers) and also logistics support skills.

Supers do receive a bonus for repair which is similar to carriers.

Titans are totally in line with the combat side of the game, as their skills outside of Doomsday and Titan will be gunnery related skills.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#6 - 2014-12-21 08:11:26 UTC
Abyss Azizora wrote:
Aurra Jol wrote:
You need to not think of a 1:1 ratio of build skills compared to skills to sit and operate.

Carriers essentially are huge logistics ships. The skills for logistics pilots are vastly different than a DPS pilot would be in a battleship, battlecruiser or cruiser. Yes, they can use drones and fighters but those are the only methods of applying offensive DPS in a fight. Their true role is to repair shields, armor or hull and pass along capacitor to fleet members.

Dreadnaughts are meant for one role. Applying massive amounts of DPS at very large and usually immobile targets (to hit anything small they need to have the target webbed by other fleet members).

The skills for sitting and flying these ships are vastly different and along paths that do not intersect all that much.

As for building, I do not know how to answer that. The skill requirements are the same. The only thing that changes between these are the capital component requirements, but that is a BP difference, and not skill.

If you are looking into ship progression, you would be looking at the following:

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Titan (tech II varieties would be mixed into the class progression).

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier < Supercarrier


Ugh no... Supercarriers would go between dreadnought and titan, they are not logistics platforms, at least not for a very long time. They are used for launching fighter-bombers to kill capital and super-capital ships.

This isn't to say you "can't" use them for logistics, just that they are not meant for that. Just like sticking remote reps on any non-bonused hull.

DPS Track
Frigate < Destroyer < Cruiser < Battlecruiser < Battleship < Dreadnaught < Supercarrier < Titan

Logistics Track
Frigate < Cruiser < Carrier
I view titans as more Utility over DPS, excluding the doomsday. Dreads do more dps, compared to titans (excluding the dd)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2014-12-21 10:04:45 UTC
Dreads without siege, or turrets, are completely useless.

Carriers without triage, or fighters, or remote reps / cap transfer, are still useful.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-12-21 15:48:42 UTC
It's a result of the evolution of the ships and classes through nerf bat doctrine.

A Dread uses twice the capital parts of a carrier, it also once had a drone bay and the damage was applied over a wider field at one time. It was worth it at the time of the original design. Capitals and Supers are classic 'death by a thousand paper cuts' examples of nerf bat doctrine. I don't even say that in a 'bittervet' sort of way. It was the losing battle CCP faced. Trying to figure ways to convince us to fail because that was an underpinning of EVE itself. Our willingness to lose ships.

tl;dr The gap is a philosophy error, not a hard numbers one.