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[How to] Fix the Rorqual. Is this a game engine restriction?

Author
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-11-14 18:57:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Omniblivion
Rather than doing a full rework of the ship as a whole, here is one suggestion on how to make the Rorqual viable in the role it was originally intended for.

Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
5% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
50% bonus to Capital Remote Shield Booster range
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
200% bonus to Cargo Scanners range
• Can fit Industrial Core
• Can fit Clone Vat Bay
• Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue

Industrial Reconfiguration bonuses (per skill level) Only while sieged:
25% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus while Sieged:
-100% Speed
100% Shield Boost/Armor Rep Amount
-50% Shield booster/armor repairer cycle time
Can't receive remote support
Immunity to EWAR
Can only siege within 150km of an asteroid object type (or the beacon of an asteroid belt/anom when you warp to one)

Additional Change:
Increase build cost to be closer to a Jump Freighter (perhaps roughly 4 bil instead of just over 2bil).


The primary question with this change- is the game engine currently able to detect if a Rorq is within 100km of an asteroid object in order to properly restrict Sieging at a belt.

These changes would have multiple effects. First, this makes the Rorqual a viable choice for actually putting in a belt and being able to siege. The siege bonuses are significant enough that it can hold off a small roaming gang, but would be largely ineffective against a larger fleet. Because of the siege cycle, roaming gangs don't even need to tackle it to be able to set up a kill, although they probably should have a bubble handy.

Rorquals would be much, much harder to kill in a belt, which is what the ship really needs to be able to function as a mobile base for mining (clone vat bay/ship maintenence bay/etc). That said, it is restricted to sieging at a belt, so these additional bonuses can not be used outside of an asteroid belt or anomaly.

While this makes a Rorqual much more difficult to kill, it also requires the a Rorqual always be at a belt in order to provide the significant mining bonus, meaning that if miners don't want to take the risk, then they'd have to use an orca for boosts and lose mining potential. If they do want the increase in output, then they'd be stuck sieging a Rorqual at a belt- but because it is a more formidable force while sieged, this would be less risk than it is currently.

I expect the initial response to this being frustration from both the PVP side and from the miner side, but this is a change that would greatly benefit both parties. The exact percentages can in fact use a little tweaking, but the intent here is clear- make the Rorqual a mobile base of operations for industrial types, meanwhile providing consistent targets for roaming gangs of decent firepower to be able to take out.

As a note- there is no additional need for the Rorqual to provide any additional mining output bonuses. The ability for the booster to also be the hauler and compressor saves a lot of time and saves one account (or enables you to use an extra miner).

Again, the Rorqual doesn't need to be vastly reworked in order to make it an effective ship; I'd rather some "simple" changes like this be made and focus development effort on continuing to come up with new ships as in Rhea. This is, of course, if the above changes are capable within the current game system :)

Edit: removed 10ly max jump range. It is not needed with this setup.
Abramul
Canadian Forces Corp
United 4 Nations
#2 - 2014-11-15 12:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Abramul
Strip miners require you to target an asteroid before you activate them, and have a maximum range. Therefore, even if Eve can't check range to a target group, this is doable.

Whether it's a good idea? You'll probably be hearing from the balance people soon enough.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2014-11-15 12:46:54 UTC
Indy core just needs to die. I don't think we need to attach more things to it.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-11-17 18:54:08 UTC
The industrial core (and skill) currently provide no real value, aside from the ability to fully utilize the Rorqual mining boosts.

The idea of planting down your Rorqual at any given asteroid belt or anomaly and have it function as a small, personal, fortress would lead to many more gameplay possibilities and would be "cool" for miners that are otherwise bored to tears warping to and from belts. They'd even feel more safe against small roaming gangs, because the Rorqual would have enough tank and firepower to hold off a small roaming gang.

On the flip side, this fortress would be locked down in space for minutes at a time without the need for an immediate point. Additionally, the added "security" of the Rorqual would lead to miners becoming much more complacent and less threatened by a roaming guy or two. The possibilities should be pretty clear cut on this end- I'll leave the BLOPS people to figure out the rest of the details.

This is literally what the Rorqual should have been from the start. These are pretty simple changes that don't require a whole new game system to rewrite the ship.

Or, we can continue waiting for another year(s) before this ship actually has a use outside of a POS.
Gulnara Amren
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#5 - 2014-11-18 10:00:14 UTC
The problem with the Rorqual is that you basically can't undock it or use it outside a POS, unless you want to watch 2 billion ISK go up in smoke to the first gang that lands on grid. That may be true of any capital, but other caps are meant to be used in fleets where they have the support necessary to give them a reasonable chance of survival. When your fleet consist of a Rorqual and a bunch of mining ships, you're just so much expensive scrap metal waiting to happen.

Now, if the Rorqual had an invulnerability timer, where you get it down to 50% shields and it goes invulnerable/immobile...that would be interesting.
Helios Panala
#6 - 2014-11-18 10:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Helios Panala
Give it a module to deploy as a tiny (half a small) POS, complete with shield and the ability to anchor guns and other deployables to it. ORE ships can lock targets and fire/mine from inside it, no other ships can.

Maybe give it a very small stront bay for half an hours shield or so, reinforcement won't activate with other players in the shield and automatically offlines turrets etc. A half hour "someone come save me" timer.

Rorqual HP should be adjusted accordingly of course.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#7 - 2014-11-18 14:17:06 UTC
When CCP figures out how to fix off-grid boosting, that along would be a big step towards getting Rorqs out of POS shields.
IMO the Rorq should be able to Indy-up anywhere, battle-Rorqs, just like you have battle-Hulks and bait-ventures. The downside would be that it would be less effective than a combat-oriented ship while allowing the versatility that we love in Eve. When you start locking ships to certain locations (or locking half of a ship type out of 25 new WHs), you limit options and things become less Eve-like.
My vision for a Rorq would be a mobile version of the NPC "asteroid mining base", it would have the ability to crunch, and store ores, refit ships, hold small defense ships, and act as a "mothership" by defending the mining fleet against raiders (not a dedicated fleet but small gang).
Overall, I like that you added combat power to it but I don't like the idea of tying Rorqs solely to belts.

I would expand my thoughts, but I have another class
Ix Method
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-11-18 15:15:05 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Indy core just needs to die. I don't think we need to attach more things to it.

We have a winner. This is a dreadful mechanic for non-combat ships.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#9 - 2014-11-18 15:15:20 UTC
I've always thought that it would be an interesting thing for the Rorqual to have POS shields when it transforms, including the restriction about targeting things while inside them. This theoretically means that the Rorqual has a useful place at a belt but no mining can be done while protected by one.
Bolur Freir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2014-11-18 19:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bolur Freir
Instead of focusing it more on mining perhaps let it take the role that the old suitcase carriers had. Remove the industrial only restriction on the SMB. Boost the range up to blops or JF range. Probably remove the drone bonus. This allows it to be useful again as a logistics platform.

Possibly allow other industry related materials in the ore bay such as PI, salvage, moon goo, maybe pos fuel.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#11 - 2014-11-18 19:08:27 UTC
The Rorqual, Supercarriers, and the Titans should really be moveable, destructible stations.

They should take 30-60-120 minutes to deploy or undeploy. They have a cool deploying animation. You can deploy them anywhere in space (except inside POS shields). They cannot be deployed closer than 100km from another station, POS, gate, etc. Once deployed, they are governed by similar mechanics as a POS or station in terms of timers, defenses, etc. They have very large cargoholds, ship bays, etc. when deployed. People can dock and clone jump to them in deployed mode. The bays get smaller when they go back into mobile mode and excess cargo gets jettisoned. In mobile mode, all docked pilots get ejected.

They give appropriate leadership bonuses to all alliance members in system in deployed mode (depending on fit). They can use the appropriate weapons for local defense in that mode. Thus, an Avatar station could help protect itself with a Doomsday and capital guns.

Unlike permanent stations, they do not automatically appear on the overview- they must be scanned down.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#12 - 2014-11-19 07:48:27 UTC
Quite simply give the Rorqual same bonus and hindrances while sieged & triaged as carriers and dreads, it's not like you Rorqal is going to be some formidable battle station when it can't use drones in siege & triage anyway and make it use stront like other caps already.
And let's be honest we've been killing sieged dreads & carriers with a bunch of cruisers for a long time, so it's not like a one sieged rorqual or even several is going to be a problem while sitting on a belt.


Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#13 - 2014-11-19 12:09:53 UTC
Helios Panala wrote:
Give it a module to deploy as a tiny (half a small) POS, complete with shield and the ability to anchor guns and other deployables to it. ORE ships can lock targets and fire/mine from inside it, no other ships can.

Maybe give it a very small stront bay for half an hours shield or so, reinforcement won't activate with other players in the shield and automatically offlines turrets etc. A half hour "someone come save me" timer.

Rorqual HP should be adjusted accordingly of course.



oh baby, i would like to see that, but ehp of this stuff should be very low kinda. max 2 mil exp
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-11-19 17:50:01 UTC
My understanding of mining in nul is that you are required to protect your mining fleet using combat ships. As a Rorq is a mining ship, there is no need to give it daft bonuses to turn it into some type of combat ship. I agree it could use substantially more HP, as its purpose is to support nulsec miners. Failing that, make it immune totally to Ewar, including scrams, bubbles and infinipoints. Gankers turn up and they have a window of opportunity to take it down before it lumbers up to warp speed and vanishes into the distance.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-11-19 18:30:02 UTC
The idea is not to make the Rorq a combat ship.

The idea is to make the Rorqual perform more like a base of operations, as the ship was originally intended. The "Combat Bonuses" are only available while sieged, for balance, and are strong enough to protect a mining fleet against a small roaming gang.

Any decent sized roaming fleet should be able to take out one sieged Rorqual. However, small gangs passing through will no longer be able to pick off mining fleets at their whim, provided you have Rorqual support.

The ore imbalance in null anoms makes it so mining is one of the worst incomes in the game- thus, having "defense fleets" for mining ops truly does not happen except in rare circumstances.

No longer should the rorqual sit behind POS shields- both being stuck there and being able to provide huge bonuses in complete safety. Rorquals should be out in the belts and sieged to provide their full bonus and protection.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-11-20 12:07:17 UTC
You're for this solely to get Rorqs out of the POS so you can wreck them.

-1
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#17 - 2014-11-20 13:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Only being able to siege at a belt would be a very arbitrary mechanic, slightly less so if it was tied into direct manipulation of an asteroid i.e. goes into a deployed mode for 5 minutes where is gobbles up an asteroid in one go and where its tanking ability is bonused.

The only way your really going to see even half way towards people considering using them ongrid like that is if they had ewar immunity similar to super capitals (and then they wouldn't really want to use a siege mode that tied them down).



scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
When CCP figures out how to fix off-grid boosting, that along would be a big step towards getting Rorqs out of POS shields.


Not really as they won't be worth the risk, you can't force people into doing things like that.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-11-20 18:46:31 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Only being able to siege at a belt would be a very arbitrary mechanic, slightly less so if it was tied into direct manipulation of an asteroid i.e. goes into a deployed mode for 5 minutes where is gobbles up an asteroid in one go and where its tanking ability is bonused.


The siege at an asteroid anomaly is a restriction on the ship that would prevent the excessive bonuses from being used in an offensive scenario, where it would have a rather large bonus. The purpose is to restrict that bonus to an asteroid anomaly so that it performs like a mobile defense platform that can tractor and compress ore on the spot.

In addition, forcing it to siege at a belt means that players that do not want to risk the rorqual at a belt will have to use an Orca for boosts, losing output. However, with the suggestions in the OP, the bonuses in siege mode would make it worthwhile to keep it in a belt.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-11-21 17:02:25 UTC
Please fix this ship so I can stop annoyingly posting about it all the time.
Utari Onzo
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#20 - 2014-11-21 20:43:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Why did I read this thread and immediatly think "Triage battle rorq"

With the Skiff/Mach buffs, surely with slightly buffed RR using larger reppers, the rorq could protect the mienrs, while they use drones and the rorqs drones to kill these invading interlopers!

It'd actually make for a tough nut to crack with just a ceptor gang, but not quite tough enough vs BLOPS/proper roaming gang

It makes fitting tank on your miners in null a SMART IDEA rather then just fitting 'insta spam warp", it makes miners feel like they can actually take invaders on rather then cower in their station/pos, and it stops me being bored to tears killing miners who have no chance of fighting back.

EDIT some sexy test stats

Capital Industrial Ships bonuses (per skill level):
5% reduction in fuel consumption for Industrial Core
10% bonus to Mining Foreman Links effectiveness when using Industrial Core
25% bonus to Remote Shield Booster range
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
50% Reduction in Remote Shield Capacitor Need (maybe needs a little more?)
900% bonus to Survey Scanner range
200% bonus to Cargo Scanners range
• Can fit Industrial Core
• Can fit Clone Vat Bay
• Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously
90% reduction to effective distance traveled for jump fatigue

Role Bonus while Sieged:
-100% Speed
100% Shield Boost/Armor Rep Amount
-50% Shield booster/armor repairer cycle time
100% Remote Shield Boost/Amount
-50% Remote Shield Boost cycle time
Can't receive remote support
Immunity to EWAR
Can only siege within 150km of an asteroid object type (or the beacon of an asteroid belt/anom when you warp to one)

The rorq is now a 'mini' triage, it's no so good as a dedicated triage carrier as it's limited to using subcapital sized reps, but it's not totally useless at protecting its charges!

It should continue to use only 5 subcapital sized drones even while sieged, but these pack a nice punch still!

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

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