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[Idea. Need help] Evelopedia-page about Postmodernism

Publius Valerius
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#1 - 2014-11-08 22:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Publius Valerius
Hi to all,

I need some help from the eve community. I was thinking the make a fan made evelopdia page about "Postmodernism (gallente philosophy)". I already talked with some people online (see mail below), and there was general some interest. My idea would be to split all the postmodern-tropes and -ideas along the eve factions (see mail below). And for that I need the help of the community to come up, or link good postmodern-oneliners. In the past I know something like a postmodern Hausarbeiten-Generator (engl.: postmodern paper generator) existed. I remember back in the day where studivz (german facebook from 2006-08) counted as "hip" and "sylish",Big smile there was such a generator. You could click on the top all the postmodern buzz-words (power-relations, paradigm, voices, vocalities, etc...) you like to use, then the page would great a full postmodern 15 page paper. Big smile If someone has a link to such a generator it would be great. Or if someone has some quotes, which are not directly linked to a person.

The Mail:

To: Jace Sarice, Jandice Ymladris,

Hi and sorry for any typos,

I have talked with Jandice Ymladris about the Idea to make a "Postmodernism (gallente Philosophy)"-page on the Evelopedia. The Idea has come to me as I read Jandice, Mithras and your (Jace) comments in the journalismus thread (was late-August-ish). My Idea is to make a postmodern-page for eve. Just with "postmodern-tropes" like objectivity doesnt exist, or their general science and logic critque etc.... But mildly splited along the factions... For example: As I told Jandice in the OOC Channel... The Amarr have no logical explanation why slavery leads to salvation. There is zero correlation between to two, but it gets sold as one.Big smile

I was thinking to do same also for the other factions (and there little Idiocracies). As for the gallente, I thought about to use your (Jace) and Mithra´s comment about journalism. As I really can´t use real life quotes: Like, for example feminist Luce Irigaray: E=mc2 is a "sexed equation" because it "privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us" I also would love to add Butler quotes, because I found them funny. Big smile But sadly I think it would be to much. Sad

So back to the topic..... So I was thinking for that to use Jace and Mithra-comments (like log-postivism=scientism). And would like to ask, if this is cool with you two to end up in the gallente section? P I was thinking to combine the journalism-thread with the current gaming-tropes-debate, and use that for the gallente. As for the two other factions, I was think maybe to use Ayn Rand and maybe for the minni some anarchist-thinkers.

I also, ask you (Jace), because you mention that you have study pol-science and that you have some knowledge in this field:
(True be told, I never had any postmodernist in pol-science... but I know other countries do use a more politcal sociology approach). As you mention here: Me personally, I have sadly not much knewledge about this movement, and I was always hold to go on a micro-level. But this is of topic. :)

Add this point I should by said, that I make more the critque part :) :)

I talked with Jandice about the Idea to make a draft first... I will work mostly along the line the Britannica-article...
But I thought I will go more the "contructvistic way".... or lets say more with a focus on the "constructivic elements" then on the "dialectical-materialistic ones"... In other words more Jean Baudrillard and Derrida, than Fredric Jameson. Which doesnt need to mean no western marxism. You (Jace), Mithra can add as much as you like.


P.S. I was thinking to make maybe a small sub-chapter to explain the difference between contructivism and postmodernism.... meaning the difference between Descartes and postmodernism.
P.S.S Thx Jandice for the thread-link:

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

Sera Kor-Azor
Amarrian Mission of the Sacred Word
#2 - 2015-01-03 05:31:42 UTC

There are a few potential problems I see here.

Firstly, I didn't learn about Post-Modernism until I was an undergraduate University student. Even then, no one in the entire University Philosophy department said a darn thing about it. I learned about it from my room-mate, who told me that Post-Modernism is 'already obsolete'.

Secondly, Post-Modern essentially means 'after Modern'. It came from the 1960s when society believed that science was infallible, technology was evolutionary, and progress is both desirable and inevitable. Post-Modernism as a philosophical and artistic stance questions that premise. Newer is not always better, nor is it always new.

Post-Modern movements such as Punk Rock were actually the first 'retro' movements, returning to the grass roots of 1950s Rock and Roll instead of the overproduced, highly commercialized 'Monster rock' of the 1970s.

The world of EVE takes place something like 10,000 years after the collapse of the wormhole leading to Earth. There was a resulting dark age where most people forgot how to make and use even simple technology. The origins of Earth are long forgotten. In fact, most people in New Eden seem to think that Earth is probably some kind of myth. Nobody would have ever heard the names of Jesus Christ, Adolph Hitler, Elvis Presley, or Socrates, nor would they understand their historical significance., so what are the chances of them knowing about Jacques Derrida or Micheal Fouceault?

Trying to apply the concept of 'post-modern' to the world of EVE presents difficulties because to us, EVE is the future. To our characters, technological change is so constant and rapid that it seems unchanging, like a river. Alvin Toffler makes reference to this in the Third Wave.

'Modern' doesn't have much meaning in New Eden because archeological relics and artifacts (such as the ones the Sleepers left behind) are often far more technologically advanced than whatever is being currently invented. Also, the Amarrians and Minmatar at the very least tend to be traditional and conservative cultures. Amarrians are still practicing slavery during a time when technology has rendered it's practicality as obsolete. Why? Well because that is their tradition. It 'says so' in their holy books.

As far as philosophy in New Eden is concerned, I generally don't get much further than considering the religions of the four factions. Arguably, religion is the grandfather of philosophy and a philosophy in itself. The Amarrian religions in themselves are quite diverse, detailed and interesting. The Minmatar have their religions as well, and so do the Caldari and Gallente. All of these is quite interesting, but some areas need development.

Also, when we consider that most people create characters in EVE for the sole purpose of killing other, what philosophical discussions are needed?

'Me good, you bad. Pew Pew. Kill mail.'

EVE has quite a range of players, from University academics all the way down to thirteen year old delinquents. Many of the people who play EVE are only interested in blowing each other up, and some still consider the word 'gay' to be an insult. Those that are even aware of what the word 'Post-Modernism' means tend to be on the thinner end and the right side of that bell curve.

Alternatively, what I might suggest is a sort of Militant Atheism. Unless it generates some kill mails, most people in New Eden have zero interest in it. You would need to come up with a kind of philosophy which would justify reasons for a war declaration.

What I have in mind is actually something like western Marxism, or specifically the Stalinist/ Maoist structure which led to so many atrocities. It's not the idea that 'Communism/ Marxism is bad', but rather the idea that the USSR and Maoist China were essentially 'modernist' states that failed.

These early socialist states were the products of the 'modern era' of the early 20th century. They were 'modernist movements', great social experiments based on science, logic, and reason, as opposed to the ages old traditions of religious superstition and individual greed. Yet in order to accomplish this utopian vision, millions of dissenters had to be arrested, imprisoned, tortured, executed, etc. Secret Police, Gulags, etc. Despite this, they still ultimately collapsed and failed.

However, the collapse of the Berlin wall wasn't so much of a collapse of Marxism as it was a collapse of the idea of modernism. Electronic music is not better than acoustic, digital is not preferable to analogue, vinyl is better than compact disks, old classics are better than the new movies, and so on.

So, I would say 'post-modernist', no, but 'rationalist', yes.

Instead of role-playing avuncular academics in tweed coats discussing philosophy over coffee in a cafe in EVE (and presumably on philosophy blogs and sites outside of EVE as well), I would suggest some sort of ideological extremist movement which resulted in fanatics on one side, and casualties on the other.

A Scientific Materialist militant Atheist movement would be a perfect foil to Amarrian religious fanaticism (or the Caldari 'Way of the Winds', whatever you like). As far as I know, nothing like this exists in EVE yet. Minmatar factional warfare role players sometimes claim to be atheists just to spite the Amarrians, but there is no 'organized Atheism'.

"A manu dei e tet rimon" - I am the devoted hand of the divine God.

Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#3 - 2015-01-10 14:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Yeesh, that's a mouthful...

I tend to agree with Sera Kor-Azor (maybe not about the 'Militant Atheism' though), EVE is a universe, not a single planet...


I also want to add that if you were going to invest the time into developing a new 'philosophy' there should be some sort of a correlation between the 'immortal' and the 'mortal'. That would probably be a good start... (works for every other philosophy or religion)

"Cogito nihil perpetuus praeter ergo ego sum"
(I think , therefore I am nothing, except the constant)

(Huh? Hmm, I think that's it... man Latin sucks...)

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...