These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7421 - 2014-10-07 10:11:02 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What we still need in this patch is to nerf remote aid capabilities of carriers without triage , while boosting it in triage.
So no new slowcat / boot fleet stays at it is.
100 repping itself carriers give us almost 60000 repair amount .

For example :
2 capital remote repairs on each carrier , each have 5 second cycle ( something that is not to big issue as carrier will have multi million ehp) repairing 1,500 hp per cycle.

So assuming 99 carriers repairing 1 currently attacked we have:
99 * 2 & 1500 /5=59400 armor points per second.

Now just assuming ( wrong assumption as resistances are usually higher ) that you are shooting in a hole in resistances that have just 50% resistance then in order just to brake this tank you need :

59400*2 =118.800 dps/s

This is still nonsense.




Volley.

Its what you need.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Brothers of Tangra
#7422 - 2014-10-07 10:19:02 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What we still need in this patch is to nerf remote aid capabilities of carriers without triage , while boosting it in triage.
So no new slowcat / boot fleet stays at it is.
100 repping itself carriers give us almost 60000 repair amount .

For example :
2 capital remote repairs on each carrier , each have 5 second cycle ( something that is not to big issue as carrier will have multi million ehp) repairing 1,500 hp per cycle.

So assuming 99 carriers repairing 1 currently attacked we have:
99 * 2 & 1500 /5=59400 armor points per second.

Now just assuming ( wrong assumption as resistances are usually higher ) that you are shooting in a hole in resistances that have just 50% resistance then in order just to brake this tank you need :

59400*2 =118.800 dps/s

This is still nonsense.




Volley.

Its what you need.

a nyx in its present state can do 19,000 dps
so 100 carriers vs 10 nyx will still lose
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7423 - 2014-10-07 10:21:31 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
I am glad that the 'I quit' and the 'haz yer stuff' has died down and now there are people who have had time to think, have done so and are making better arguments. In that regard this is the opposite of most threadnaughts as the circle runners are quieting and the adults are staying up and discussing, rationally.



With that in mind I'd like to take a stab at reposting this. I feel it's a more elegant way to handle things and will resolve a lot of issues mentioned in this thread. It also feels more 'sandboxy' - allowing players to make decisions at their own detriment rather than having those decisions made for them.

xttz wrote:
Probably a bit late to spitball, but what the hell.

1) Set all ship jump ranges to exactly 10 light years. Carriers, Titans, Blops, everything. Starbase JBs remain at 5LY.
2) Jump fatigue is measured from 1-100%. Whenever you jump, your fatigue is increased by whatever percentage of 10LY you jump. So a 4LY jump adds 40% fatigue, 8.5LY adds 85%, etc. Simple.
3) Fatigue decays on a curve akin to shields and cap regen, just in reverse. This means that it's much quicker to go from 30% to 20% than from 100% to 90%.
4) Until the fatigue decays completely, this percentage is a limit on subsequent jumps. Someone with a 90% fatigue cannot jump more than 1LY, while someone on 35% fatigue can jump up to 6.5LY
5) Special-cases like blops, freighters and JFs build fatigue at a reduced rate (50% is probably fair).
6) Training Jump Drive Calibration speeds up fatigue decay.

This is far simpler to understand for players, easier to do math on the fly, and means less sitting around waiting on cooldown timers doing nothing in what's meant to be a video game. Inter-region travel is just as slow, but local travel is viable. There's an incentive for players to make shorter jumps or take gates, as recovering from a long jump would take much longer than several shorter ones.
The higher range introduces a trade-off for jump-capable combat ships; the further away they hide the easier it is to make a surprise attack, but the harder it becomes to get away again. In the future, power projection can be tuned by simply adjusting the base rate of fatigue decay.

Examples:

An Archon pilot jumps from Sahkt to Karan, a distance of 6.32LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 63.2%. His next jump must be 3.68LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue decays.

A jump freighter pilot jumps from CCP-US to DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at a reduced rate of 16.2% (half of 32.4%). His next jump must be 8.38LY or less, although this will gradually increase as fatigue decays.

A Rifter pilot takes a starbase jump bridge between CCP-US and DO6H-Q, a distance of 3.24LY. After the jump, his fatigue is set at 32.4%. His next jump must be 6.76LY or less, meaning he can use at least one more Jump Bridge immediately. This means a return trip is easily possible, but using more than 1-2 bridges means a lengthy delay.


New bit:
The curved decay is based on shield/cap regen. It works the same way (with a peak at 30%) only moving in reverse from 100% down to 0%. The idea behind it is to reward shorter jumps - i.e. local travel. A jump of 2 to 4LY puts you in the peak decay rate, making it far quicker to recover from. Jumps 8 to 10LY put you at the slowest rate of decay. The dip at the lower end of the curve (0-10%) also has a slow rate, meaning lots and lots of short jumps will build up a larger drawback over time.

I don't have a calculator to do this exactly, but from memory with a basic decay rate of 1 day for 100% to 0% it would look roughly like this:
100% to 90% = 12 hours
90% to 0% = 12 hours
50% to 25% = 2.8 hours

I think this gels well with the sandbox aspect of eve - the system encourages short movements, and you have the option to make long jumps but there's a much higher drawback for doing so.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#7424 - 2014-10-07 10:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Carniflex
Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


In low sec gate camping with carrier or even supers will be either totally or quite safe. If you get agressed you wait out the timer and jump the gate. After jump your gate cloak will last 30 sec but you can jump after 15 secs. So light exit cyno, pick the beacon in right click menu, press "a" for align and immediately press jump, if you do it right you will jump the same second you de-cloak.

Granted one danger would be titans, but hey, you can do the same camp with a titan. And titan is very large, you can smartbomb damn lot with a titan. Just need couple different emergency exit cynos in place.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Julian Aldurald
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#7425 - 2014-10-07 10:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Julian Aldurald
What about making region gates even larger alongside with that change so that camping them gets even harder than it is now... because if you realy want it is still possible without too much effort I think. They'll gona camp all the region gates after that change I think...

Ah and yes what about capital jump drives maybe :D
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#7426 - 2014-10-07 10:35:59 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
CCP Greyscale.

We have reached maximum rage fatigue. You need to release a revised dev blog now with proposed revisions. Thats the only way to get more input


Oh no, Rage is unlimited here.

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7427 - 2014-10-07 10:41:58 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
In low sec gate camping with carrier or even supers will be either totally or quite safe. If you get agressed you wait out the timer and jump the gate. After jump your gate cloak will last 3 sec but you can jump after 15 secs. So light exit cyno, pick the beacon in right click menu, press "a" for align and immediately press jump, if you do it right you will jump the same second you de-cloak.

Granted one danger would be titans, but hey, you can do the same camp with a titan. And titan is very large, you can smartbomb damn lot with a titan. Just need couple different emergency exit cynos in place.



Depends if they add a few gate guns that are only really able to hit caps.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7428 - 2014-10-07 10:44:03 UTC
Since capitals going through gates is going to be a thing, revisiting the aggression timer may be in order. Having the timer based on ship mass instead of a static 1 minute timer would be better. Want to agress with a titan on a gate? Prepare to wait a few minutes for that timer to drop. It would help with docking game BS too.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Tal Redfield
Rowan's Crown
#7429 - 2014-10-07 11:13:31 UTC
One of the long term appeals of EVE, certainly for me, was acquiring a Titan, a difficult endeavour indeed. It in itself, what it represents and what it is able to do was worth hours of grinding and months of skill training and one of the only reasons I keep coming back for more instead of something shallow like WOW.

I'm up to about 30bil omw to a titan, yet after reading this I can honestly say you just took the wind out of my sails so to speak. Who wants to own a titan that can't be realistically used to bridge a fleet to drop on people in the immediate vicinity etc.. I don't care about power projection, i don't power project, I'm not part of a large entity that power projects yet I'm gonna pay the price for that.

I'm now sitting here trying to reevaluate my long term aspirations for EVE and honestly I'm struggling to come up with any... all the grinding just seems pointless now...


I certainly hope things pan out differently than what you are planning at the moment...
Chigiku
DDo Squad Gaming
#7430 - 2014-10-07 11:15:15 UTC
I really hope this change will come live in november. (the jump fatigue and the reduced ly jump range, for caps / jf)
I personally find it a wonderful idea
I think CCP expected Crius to make so that null sec people would rather produce in null sec than shopping everything in jita, hope it will be attained in Phoebe
Don't understand why people wouldn't want to try and travel through gate with their carrier / dread (with the help of a few subcap), those are pretty expandable in my opinion
Julian Aldurald
Primus Inc.
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
#7431 - 2014-10-07 11:30:25 UTC
Another anti blob mechanic that came to my mind is limiting jumps that use cynos per solar system.

Basicly there should be a 'natural phenomenon' that is caused by ppl jumping on a cyno in system to spread out energy (basicly build up a counter that is incremented by the mass of the jumped after each jump in the current solar system).
The energy/ counter should 'cool down'/ disband linear over time again.
After a certain degree this energy should cause the system to get 'heated up' and starting to get strong enought to jam all cynos system wide immediately and due to that prefenting all further jumps into the system from occuring.

In addition if capitals and stuff are allowed to use jump gates (and because of the subcaps even if not):
The energy will spread out using the stargates in a certain degree and affect neighbor system to heat up by a small part of the amount as in the own system as well. This may happens recursivly, at least to a certain degree.

This concept might not be perfect or as such filed but I wanted to share the general idea with you.
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#7432 - 2014-10-07 12:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Julian Aldurald wrote:
Another anti blob mechanic that came to my mind is limiting jumps that use cynos per solar system.

Basicly there should be a 'natural phenomenon' that is caused by ppl jumping on a cyno in system to spread out energy (basicly build up a counter that is incremented by the mass of the jumped after each jump in the current solar system).
The energy/ counter should 'cool down'/ disband linear over time again.
After a certain degree this energy should cause the system to get 'heated up' and starting to get strong enought to jam all cynos system wide immediately and due to that prefenting all further jumps into the system from occuring.

In addition if capitals and stuff are allowed to use jump gates (and because of the subcaps even if not):
The energy will spread out using the stargates in a certain degree and affect neighbor system to heat up by a small part of the amount as in the own system as well. This may happens recursivly, at least to a certain degree.

This concept might not be perfect or as such filed but I wanted to share the general idea with you.


Any concept which guarantees the side which arrives first a 100% victory is a leap backwards.

Edit: they could just gate into the system if it's "overheated".
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7433 - 2014-10-07 12:22:22 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Davionia Vanshel wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:


If the chuckwagon travels faster or further than the troops it serves little purpose

m

as a kid I loved watching chuckwagon races


This is rather naïve - because it ignores where logistics and troops move from:

Logistics movements originate in factories / farms / distribution centres out of theatre. While troops originally mobilise out of theatre once mobilised, 'the troops' are typically in theatre and typically attack or manoeuvre from their last objective to their new objective.

Meanwhile the logistics train must service the continual process of resupply from home to the front via the network of supply infrastructure.

This means that the 'chuck wagon' must be capable of moving faster and further than troops because of the relative distances travelled.

not if you are using the same method of travel. You dont see oilers zipping to and from aircraft carriers in the pacific (assuming non-nuclear). The constant flow of supplies is kept up with planning ahead and stockpiles in certain locations. Same thing happened on the ground during WW2. If you didnt have access to existing infrastructure (of which there is now no real comparison in game) you had to haul supplies in the same trucks that moved troops, through the same terrain. The only time a supply line will move faster is if it is in friendly controlled territory. and since the front lines of conflict dont tend to keep up blitz speeds, the supply lines dont have to go any faster than the forces. When germany invaded russia part of the reason that the winter was so harsh to them was that they outran their supply lines and many just surrendered due to starvation and freezing. Second to the enemies efforts, logistics has always been the thing slowing down military movement.

Actually he's right - the longest range ships in WW2 were the haulers. The liberty ships could travel around the world and then some without refueling. Without that range we could not have built enough ships to sustain the war.
Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
#7434 - 2014-10-07 12:24:38 UTC
This is a another huge nerf to super-carriers and titans. For better or worse, these ships have only a fraction of the ability they once had when they were released.

Is it possible for CCP to re-visit the issue of supers and titans being able to dock? Do you really think that with all the previous changes in addition to what is being planned, it still makes sense to keep these ships out of stations?
Tootenh'amon
#7435 - 2014-10-07 12:39:21 UTC
Jacque Custeau wrote:
This is a another huge nerf to super-carriers and titans. For better or worse, these ships have only a fraction of the ability they once had when they were released.

Is it possible for CCP to re-visit the issue of supers and titans being able to dock? Do you really think that with all the previous changes in addition to what is being planned, it still makes sense to keep these ships out of stations?


It's not a nerf, it's a rebalance. If titans weren't "nerfed" couple of years back, you'd now see 100 titans, each doing 70.000 damage to everything on the grid. Obviously there were misconceptions backed when titans were introduced, but to be fair CCP handled the issue with as much grace as possible considering. These changes might actually be a move in the original direction, with titans being "a huge duck".
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#7436 - 2014-10-07 12:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Azami Nevinyrall
Jacque Custeau wrote:
This is a another huge nerf to super-carriers and titans. For better or worse, these ships have only a fraction of the ability they once had when they were released.

Is it possible for CCP to re-visit the issue of supers and titans being able to dock? Do you really think that with all the previous changes in addition to what is being planned, it still makes sense to keep these ships out of stations?


Supers and Titans at this point would see a fitting and EHP poke. Carriers should see their drone bay split into 2, 1 large one for Fighters and a BS sized one for regular drones.

Supers and Titans should never be allowed to dock! The pilots in them made a conscious decision to fly space coffins, they had along time of training, building, gathering ISK to change their mind. They knew what they were getting into!

Also, Titans are bigger then some stations...

...

Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7437 - 2014-10-07 12:47:07 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Please go for this:

(before skills)

2.5 LY - dreads, titans
3.0 LY - carriers, supers
3.5 LY - BLOPS
4.0 LY - Rorq, JF

This will keep logistics alive.

Another idea is to add boosters that add to the range of Rorq and JF (when they work).

The Rorqual and JF are getting a 90% bonus. Logistics is hardly dead. And if the Rorqual is going to enjoy the benefit of being a logistics ship, as others have said, it should have it's combat capabilities nerfed really hard.


They're getting a 90% bonus to fatigue. I could care less about fatigue. I am smart enough to only need a logi run every couple of weeks. But the range nerf is intolerable. I only have enough cyno alts for 6 jumps. Sorry but I am not taking a 7 billion ISK JF with cargo through gates. And with a 5 LY range I can't get anywhere. It just doesn't work. I'm taking a good hard look at a long life in low sec to be honest.


Have you considered that the idea is for the Logistics to take days not hours like it does now?

Think of it like ordering something from say Amazon, it doesn't get to your house in a few hours unless you live next door to the shipping dock it came in on and it went straight to you from there. With this initiative the idea is for logistics to be possible but to take substantially longer like the package that will take days to get to your home. now your jump freighter might take 2 days once you cool down your fatigue and move cynos, maybe a week at the most if you live way out there. Consider more cyno alts the version of "Priority Shipping" since theoretically you can take even more time off your trip.

People have run the calculations, its all still possible, CCP just wants to make people work for their lifestyles now where before there was complacency and lazyness. Were trimming the fat by putting people on the treadmill, and its going to burn at first until you lose the excess and get back into shape for it. But once your in shape for it, that run will be a cakewalk and you will be used to it. Some people wont make the run, theyll just continue on with their complacency and lazyness or move to closer regions so they dont work as hard.

But i can tell you from experience both in EvE and in real life, you have to burn some to earn some.

( and yes i lived in Null sec I know how much logistics means, Stain if you were wondering )

Will logistics pilots spending a week instead of a day be paid $15+ an hour for their 40+ hours a week, like UPS and FedEx drivers do?
Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#7438 - 2014-10-07 12:49:14 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Jacque Custeau wrote:
This is a another huge nerf to super-carriers and titans. For better or worse, these ships have only a fraction of the ability they once had when they were released.

Is it possible for CCP to re-visit the issue of supers and titans being able to dock? Do you really think that with all the previous changes in addition to what is being planned, it still makes sense to keep these ships out of stations?


Supers and Titans at this point would see a fitting and EHP poke. Carriers should see their drone bay split into 2, 1 large one for Fighters and a BS sized one for regular drones.

Supers and Titans should never be allowed to dock! The pilots in them made a conscious decision to fly space coffins, they had along time of training, building, gathering ISK to change their mind. They knew what they were getting into!

Also, Titans are bigger then some stations...


They also knew that their jump range would be cut horribly at some point?

Your quest for GRR GOONS is grasping at straws at this point, maybe go away for a few weeks and come back to see how the forum have exploded over the patch?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#7439 - 2014-10-07 12:52:59 UTC
Higgs Foton wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Most of goonswarm members who have posted in this thread are not crying but are in fact laughing because they know that these changes will only make them stronger.





Yes yes yes, keep at it.


Btw, here's a top tip for any corp, alliance or whatever, who isn't top predator within their group, coalition or area: Since the fierce 0.0 PVP bears will lose the capability to (on a regular basis) attack people all the way over there using the titan bus (comfortably far away from their own home) they will start to look for targets closer to home to keep their F1 cattle entertained, because if they don't they'll doze off and stop logging in.

This means that you could be the next target and it won't happen in a "oops, now you're red" kind of way. Per usual some drama will happen (fuelled by alts), your assets will go missing, infighting will start and then you'll be informed that you're just not a constructive part of the coalition anymore and they have no other choice than to reset you (while they'll be stealing your assets and assimilating your best pilots). It has happened before and it'll happen again, and a lot more because of the upcoming changes.


I suggest you folks put some good thought into how that's going to work out.


I am pretty sure this change makes indeed deployment difficult for us and other groups, so people can bet on we will organise more "Burn Jita" events and Hulkageddon like stuff. Given the fact we of the glorious CFC live close by Caldari space, there is a big probability we will pop in now and then to torch and pillage the place.

Hey, its all in good fun. :)


aha, so you're continuing the tradition of "lets not actually fight cause that's scary, it keeps us from farming like the true carebears we are".

Noted.
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#7440 - 2014-10-07 12:53:58 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Jacque Custeau wrote:
This is a another huge nerf to super-carriers and titans. For better or worse, these ships have only a fraction of the ability they once had when they were released.

Is it possible for CCP to re-visit the issue of supers and titans being able to dock? Do you really think that with all the previous changes in addition to what is being planned, it still makes sense to keep these ships out of stations?


Supers and Titans at this point would see a fitting and EHP poke. Carriers should see their drone bay split into 2, 1 large one for Fighters and a BS sized one for regular drones.

Supers and Titans should never be allowed to dock! The pilots in them made a conscious decision to fly space coffins, they had along time of training, building, gathering ISK to change their mind. They knew what they were getting into!

Also, Titans are bigger then some stations...


They also knew that their jump range would be cut horribly at some point?

Your quest for GRR GOONS is grasping at straws at this point, maybe go away for a few weeks and come back to see how the forum have exploded over the patch?


You say "GRR GOONS" I say "GRR Power Projection" ...and the revitalization of Nullsec.

...keep drinking that Kool-aid! And enjoy long TiDi voyages throughout space to stroke someone else's ego! I'll be actually having fun!

...