These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Snr GM allegedly rules "Starbase Forcefield Ship Bumping" not exploit

First post First post
Author
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-09-10 18:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Tsukaya
CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/

They stated:

Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP Games’ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.


Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings.

There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence.

This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment?

UPDATE: We now have a sisi video of a titan being bumped out of a POS shields in a way that is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#2 - 2014-09-10 20:42:46 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/

They stated:

Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP Games’ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.


Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings.

There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence.

This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment?


/popcorm
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#3 - 2014-09-10 20:55:19 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/

They stated:

Quote:
Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP Games’ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.


Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings.

There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence.

This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment?


/popcorm

There's a video now of a titan on singularity being bumped out of a POS in this manner which is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA

Now remember if you do something like this with bumping battleships it's an exploit, but if you do it with titans it's not because of the "substantial risks involved" allegedly according to an eve online senior GM.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-09-10 21:12:22 UTC
here is a flipside to that arguement, and yes, I am familiar with the video. PL also made a similar video

Those video work on Bumping from cynoing in, if you rule bumping when you cyno in is an exploit, then you might as well remove cynos from the game

If you rule that bumping from a cyno event shouldn't result in a kill, then the hundreds of JF that bumped off a station or other place would also not be legal kills due to bumping from cyno event.

PL also lost a Titan down south when it cyno'd in with a group of other titans and it bumped so hard it got out of rep range of the fleet and died, was that an exploit, should we petition and have it replaced?


Short of making "cyno can't be lit within 50km of pos shield" or some crap, bumping is going to happen and players have ZERO control, there was as much chance of nothing as there was at something there.


But, be prepared for what you wish for, if you make killing something from a bump that the player can NOT control when they cyno in somewhere.
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-09-10 21:37:56 UTC
I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2014-09-10 21:48:18 UTC
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.



Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits


Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-09-10 23:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.



Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits


Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it

Jumping to a cyno is something pilots have 100% control over.
There is no reason to jump titans onto a cyno right next to the tower with a titan inside the shields except for bumping the titan out. I'd have no problem with you doing so if you have access to the force field, but without that access cynoing that close to the tower serves no other purpose than to use the exploit.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-09-10 23:32:57 UTC
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2014-09-11 02:32:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.



Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits


Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it

Jumping to a cyno is something pilots have 100% control over.
There is no reason to jump titans onto a cyno right next to the tower with a titan inside the shields except for bumping the titan out. I'd have no problem with you doing so if you have access to the force field, but without that access cynoing that close to the tower serves no other purpose than to use the exploit.



So basically we should remove cynos cause bumping is an exploit

Maybe they thought they had the password and were just getting titans in place

You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system

DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#10 - 2014-09-11 05:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: DJ FunkyBacon
Personally I would say that if using ships to bump a ship out of a POS forcefield is an exploit, this tactic as you describe it seems about the same, regardless of the risks involved... but what do I know? Given how likely your own ships are to get bounced off the shield at a decent velocity, it doesn't seem to be tactically sound unless you're doing it to bump out what's inside.

I see no issue with an incoming ship bouncing off something and getting lost due to going out of rep range or whatever, but certainly I've seen elsewhere that intentionally bumping ships out of a POS shield without access to the POS is a no no. Condoning this particular tactic on the other hand would certainly open it up to much wider use, and if it's ok with titans, why not dreads and carriers? That would seem to be more cost effective if they have the mass for it.

I'll be happy to ask the question for you though since my personal opinions on the matter mean nothing when it comes to CCP classing this particular tactic as an exploit or not. Clarification on this, if it happened as you say, would be nice.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

FunkyBacon on Twitter

mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-09-11 05:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Kenneth Feld wrote:


You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system




No. I do not think that people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the "off chance" there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them.


What I really think is that people are going to monitor systems/poses in which they know titans to operate, so that if they see one near the edge and have a dozen or so titans handy, they can exploit and bump them. While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic ejects their own titan at several thousand meters per second, giving them very high odds that (whether or not they kill their prey) they can make a clean getaway and then go post strawmen arguments on the forums.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Schwa Nuts
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-09-11 07:21:04 UTC
Anyone that would defend this as a legitimate tactic is not being honest. It's quite obviously not intended game mechanics.
Dirk MacGirk
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-09-11 07:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk MacGirk
Does anyone recall the details that resulted in the exploit notice from 2013? Regardless, mass is mass when launched at a pos shield whether by subcap or supercap. I'm still not surprised someone at CCP would rule entirely differently this time around. Following precedent is a difficult task.
Cray Havoc
Kriegsmarinewerft
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2014-09-11 07:43:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cray Havoc
So basically it's okay to exploit game mechanics (server ticks) if we do it with Titans but it's bannable if we do it with a Battleship?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that the reason, that stuff like this is working has to do with multiple factors like invisible model size, server ticks, mass, bad pos code and god knows what else. We do not ask for a fix because it's probably impossible to do in a timely manner. But you can't just come along and declare that this obvious exploit (that CCP itself declared as a bannable offense) is suddenly 'emergent gameplay' if you do it under the right circumstances. There is absolutley ZERO difference between applying this 'tactic' with subcaps or supercapitals, they exploit exactly the same flaw in the code and mechanics and by CCPs own ruling thats an exploit.

If you decided to change this, you should have announced it in a Devblog for everyone to see. This way you gave an extremely unfair advantage to two playergroups in the game, without telling anyone else. Looks like some things will never change.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#15 - 2014-09-11 09:20:30 UTC
This really does seem like an exploit in all regards, players who are cynoing that close to a tower and right next to a Titan they can't kill because it's 100% inside the shields are only doing it for one reason, to bump and kill.

I find it shocking that CCP will deem this okay.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2014-09-11 09:52:47 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Does anyone recall the details that resulted in the exploit notice from 2013? Regardless, mass is mass when launched at a pos shield whether by subcap or supercap. I'm still not surprised someone at CCP would rule entirely differently this time around. Following precedent is a difficult task.


Yes, very familiar with it, but I am pretty sure saying what it is or how it worked on forums is the same as doing it in game, which is why i have refereed to it but never said what or how to do it
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#17 - 2014-09-11 09:55:50 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:


You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system




No. I do not think that people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the "off chance" there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them.


What I really think is that people are going to monitor systems/poses in which they know titans to operate, so that if they see one near the edge and have a dozen or so titans handy, they can exploit and bump them. While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic ejects their own titan at several thousand meters per second, giving them very high odds that (whether or not they kill their prey) they can make a clean getaway and then go post strawmen arguments on the forums.



So, what is the exploit?

Lighting the cyno to close to shields?

Jumping Titans thru a cyno?

Or do you have to light a cyno close to a shield, which you may or may not have the password to, what if you *think* you have the password due to a spai and you jump and then you don't have the password. The spai set you up, now you are banned for exploit.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2014-09-11 11:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
"because of this very particular hypothetical edge case, this exploit should not be considered an exploit"

this just reeks of desperation

hint: the exploit isn't jumping titans, it's not using a cyno, it's doing a combination of the two with the intent of bumping a ship out of a forcefield when the ship is entirely enclosed by the shields

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Julius Magnum
Gladius Veritatis
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2014-09-11 12:04:56 UTC
In the mean time, a thread started by some-A- dude regarding the same subject has been locked by an moderator, instead if simply moving it to the right forums location. Do we have to understand that discussing this subject in official forums is forbidden or is just because CCP cannot/does not want to enforce the rules to a specific alliance?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2014-09-11 12:30:34 UTC
Andski wrote:
"because of this very particular hypothetical edge case, this exploit should not be considered an exploit"

this just reeks of desperation

hint: the exploit isn't jumping titans, it's not using a cyno, it's doing a combination of the two with the intent of bumping a ship out of a forcefield when the ship is entirely enclosed by the shields



So, if everyone puts in the password and waits for cyno, meanwhile someone changes the pos password or the leaked password is wrong and they jump, is it still an exploit?

I mean when you hit jump you THOUGHT you had the correct password, there is no INTENT, it was an accident, yet you get banned for it
123Next pageLast page