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Ore Compression and the State of Crius Industry

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Author
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-09-01 23:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go.

Since Crius kneecapped scrap metal reprocessing, compressed ore is the new hotness. However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.

I feel this could be improved by three simple changes.

1) Add a station compression service. This removes the barrier of entry that a POS requires, and makes compression ubiquitous for all. This does not obviate the use of the POS module -- a savvy miner might set up a POS in a system without a station, and use the POS compression module to help keep their industry well lubricated.

2) Add UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression. Currently, items which are not profitable to reprocess are highlighted in red. Extend this functionality to ores whose compressed version is reasonably more profitable than its constituent minerals.

3) Consolidate ore variants to a single type of compressed ore. For example, compressing Concentrated Veldspar and Dense Veldspar would output Compressed Veldspar. Tweaking the input amounts to correspond to the higher amount of minerals contained in the ore variants would make this work.

Edit: After some, well, strenuous debate on the topic, a compromise has emerged that I think everyone can enjoy. Allow the Orca to fit the Industrial Core, giving it the ability to compress ore.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#2 - 2014-09-02 05:49:21 UTC
POS compression is the most basic of POS activities. In fact I would argue that it is in fact a means of entry into POS ownership and use. Although the convince of station compression would greatly assist in my particular efforts I do not believe it is the appropriate action to take.

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Oxide Ammar
#3 - 2014-09-02 07:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
Tzar Sinak wrote:
POS compression is the most basic of POS activities. In fact I would argue that it is in fact a means of entry into POS ownership and use. Although the convince of station compression would greatly assist in my particular efforts I do not believe it is the appropriate action to take.


I agree, this game about logistics when you offer compression service to every station out there this will nullify the volume of ores itself since you are compressing on the spot...suddenly you will realize why the hell we have compression from the beginning if we can compress 24/7 ...so why don't we take out this compression whole idea from game and we apply the compressed ore volumes directly to the ores itself and be done with it. You see why I did there ?

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2014-09-02 08:14:53 UTC
I'd agree that making it easier to compress ore, would make POS based compression next to pointless. The only way to avoid that would be to add a cost which is unavoidable. Like a percentage cost taken, whenever you compress ore in station. 5% say. (maybe 10%, and standings can reduce)

Ditto with adding it to a ship or mobile structure, unless it's inherently lossy.

The UI hints I like. Yes, it's kind of 'dumbing down Eve', but I think it's handy for training newcomers, and people do never bothered looking.

Consolidating ore types is also a good idea. Complicated to get the numbers working out right, but not hellishly so. When I've dipped my toe into the compressed Veld market, the basic sold quickly. The dense is still sitting. Because the volume is too low for people to bother looking at.

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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-09-02 11:07:23 UTC
as i said int he other thread:

DO NOT TOUCH ORE OR COMPRESSION, they are fine

Most people haven't figured it out, I have and I like my advantage

I have bought roughly 50-70 bil of ore a week with no issues at GOOD prices, please don't screw it up, it is a good balance and requires putting on big boy pants and a thinking cap. Best addition to the game in years.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-09-02 14:35:50 UTC
I'd agree that station compression would probably have an associated fee. I'd say an isk cost rather than a materials tax, as sinking more isk is always a good thing. The starbase compression module, of course, would be free of this fee. I'd also entertain the notion of having the station compression service only available in empire, or perhaps only highsec, to incentivize use of the starbase module (and rorqual!) in lower-security space.

Having station compression does not completely obsolete the starbase compression module. Many systems in empire do not have stations, which would allow a savvy miner to set up a starbase in this system to ease his or her logistics in a way that others can't. This goes doubly for nullsec, where the costs of a (small) starbase are much, much cheaper than an outpost for any reasonable length of time. And, of course, you can't forget wormholes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-09-02 14:47:42 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
as i said int he other thread:

DO NOT TOUCH ORE OR COMPRESSION, they are fine

Most people haven't figured it out, I have and I like my advantage

I have bought roughly 50-70 bil of ore a week with no issues at GOOD prices, please don't screw it up, it is a good balance and requires putting on big boy pants and a thinking cap. Best addition to the game in years.

There's no thinking cap involved. There is a massive amount of round-trip hauling, which is perhaps the worst sort of pointless busywork that exists in this game. As a result, few people are doing compression and I expect a shocking number of those are hauling bots. No sane human at the computer can sit there doing round trips from a station to a pos in a freighter all day.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2014-09-02 14:56:55 UTC
Not to mention the following:

http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png

I believe that even with station compression, you'll still be able to buy ore from people in geographically remote areas at a cost advantage. Adding station compression in empire doesn't threaten this.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Shoogie
Serious Pixels
#9 - 2014-09-02 15:19:56 UTC
I have been fairly active in the compressed minerals market for the last month. Jita was bought out of reasonably priced compressed plagioclase on Sunday. However, there was still reasonably priced compressed azure and compressed rich plagioclase available. Also, the regular was re-stocked by Monday. For the other ores, I have plenty of competition 0.01-isking my market orders. So I think the markets are pretty healthy.

We are fighting against 11 years of intertia of miners thinking they should be refining their ore. I think they are coming around-some more slowly than others. Given a little more time, miners refining should be the exception.

I am a bit conflicted on the idea of consolidating ore variants. On the one hand, I like being able to cram 10% more minerals into a jump freighter by using the high-grade compressed ores. On the other hand, the markets show that most people are not taking advantage of it. Compressed massive scordite should be worth 10% more than regular scordite, because it packs 10% more minerals into the same volume? Well, they are selling for about the same price. Obviously, many capital builders simply have the regular compressed ores on their spreadsheets and don't want to hassle with the higher grade versions. This is good for people who are smart enough to check the high grade ores on the market, but not so good for incentivizing miners to compress their ore. Is this an example of bad complexity?

If we were to consolidate ore variants, I would recommend fiddling with the batch size. 100 units of regular ore is required to refine into X minerals or compress into 1 compressed ore. For the 5% variant ore, use 95 units to refine into the same stack of minerals or 1 compressed ore. For the 10% variant ore, use 90 units to refine or compress. This would be the simplest way to make everything line up nicely and not affect current yields much.
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#10 - 2014-09-02 15:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Vulpine
I think partly we need to distinguish between the re-education of people from the old to the new eve and the expected long term steady state. Based on that


1) While definitely a way of speeding up adoption in the short term, in the long run it has significant impact on the steady state. I personally agree that ISK fees would be a better long term counterbalance than loss of ore. The scale of fees would need to be such that compressing low-end ores in a station doesn't exceed the increase in value so this may be fairly marginal. An option of paying compression fees in LP instead of ISK may add some variety and increase take-up in the "my time is free" market segment at the cost of reducing the ISK sink. You could add further incentives to using "proper" compression via POS or Rorq by putting a cap on station compression batch size or requiring some form of payment in items. Sure the station will compress it for you but you'll need to provide them a janitor first so that it can tidy up afterwards.

As an alternative have stations offer an "ore plank packaging" option. It doesn't turn ore in to compressed ore but it puts it in to a courier package like container which contains much more ore on the inside than its external measurement. Make this efficient enough that it slightly beats moving minerals but less efficient than moving compressed ore. As a container you wouldn't be able to move it via any service that re-contracts to haulers (e.g. Red Frog) and potentially it wouldn't fit in to freighters or JFs. You could however haul it yourself more conveniently in a miasmos or normal industrial. You would also be able to break it open anywhere to convert it back to normal ore and then sell or compress. This would allow an individual to experience some of the convenience that compression offers while leaving a definite niche for proper compression. If you go down this route give each and every player a voucher for a 10,000 m3 container conversion. Minimal in ISK terms but a lot of people will try it out simply because they have a voucher so they may as well spend it.


2) This purely attacks the adoption speed and allows the ore processor to make an informed decision. I can think of absolutely no reason not to add this. The display should also include not just the ISK value comparison but the m3 value comparisons. People are partially habituated in to an "ore bulky / minerals compact" mindset and so refining might be as much a way of making things easier to move as trying to keep some of the value.
An interesting side question here is what other values are worth showing? The value of the raw ore and of the minerals received on reprocessing are obvious enough. Comparing this with the market value of the relevant compressed ore would be the basic new addition. Should it also include a value for "best reprocess possible at this facility" so that people get a gut feel appreciation of the value of the reprocessing skills and implant?
In terms of effort this also seems like an easy option. It's recently written code and all of the values it needs are already available.


3) This is more of a long term change than adoption speed I think. Back when the compression blog first popped up I posted to ask about simplifying the compression to a single type of product per ore. I was coming from the angle of simplifying buy orders so that it remained comparable to current mineral buy orders in slot consumption. At the time people pointed out they liked the option of the higher grade compressed ores for the extra transport density they could get if they were picky about what they bought. For the real bulk users 10% extra ore per m3 is a reduction in the number of jump freighter loads required.

While I personally like the idea of simpler supply lines I can understand why some want the option of spending more time purchasing and less effort moving. Now what might be nice (though hard for maths) is to have the station compress things to "basic" ore. POS modules compress it all to 5% compressed ore. Rorqs compress it all to 10% compressed ore. Doing that might need compressed ore to be converted in to something that is simply smaller than uncompressed ore and is exchanged on a 1:1 basis rather than 100 ore -> 1 compressed ore. This would also help the Rorq with its absurdly small fleet hangar that fills up with odds and ends of ore during a strip mining operation.


4) As a possibly more radical / additional option. Change the way POS / Rorq compression works. Instead of insert in to hangar, compress it, remove go to approach within 2,500 meters, use the compression service in the same way as a fitting service, compress ore in your own ship. On the POS side it would ideally be accompanied with an access setting of "everybody" on the module so that's probably less useful. While a nice thought I suspect this would quickly get outweighed by the effort involved in coding it in to the game. And it would also need people to anchor the compression module close enough to the forcefield edge. But what it would allow is for somebody to collect up ore from across an area and do a drive by compression with a freighter.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#11 - 2014-09-02 16:16:41 UTC
Personally I feel these proposals are attempting to fix something that is fit for purpose and is not broken. I think most people like the three variants of each ore and I'm sure intelligent ore buyers see the sense in buying ores with an additional ten percent yield.
Those industrialists that do not wish to make more profit can continue on as they are.

These ideas would be a waste of valuable Dev time which could be used to fix bugs and problems highlighted by others or maybe even broken stuff. Smile

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#12 - 2014-09-02 16:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Grace Chang
Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).

The whining about the lack of compressed ore is basically people who want to buy compressed ore at the ore price +1 %. That is not going to happen. Set up a buy order at a good enough price and people will compress the ore and do the logistics for it.


Edit: simple fix for people that have "problems" to get compressed ore: set up a regional buy order for ore and go and compress it yourself. To bothersome? Well that is the extra that needs to be paid.
Arronicus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#13 - 2014-09-02 16:49:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
Ore compression is just fine.

Adding ore compression to stations would be a huge mistake, that would only further reduce the usefulness of the rorqual, and POS'es. Considering that compression is now instant, it is not some 'great heroic effort' to take large amounts of ore to a pos via freighter, compress it, then run it back to a station all at once, not to mention if you haul your mined ore straight to the pos in the first place, it's faster than if you actually used a station.

If anything, I would like to see an inefficiency applied to pos compression (say 2-5%?) to give back something to the rorqual, which keeps getting skipped over.

Edit: As for removing the 5% and 10% compressed variants: No. Eve does not need to be simplified and dumbed down. The complexity is a good thing, not to mention that 10% compressed ore blocks are that much more efficient for hauling space.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-09-02 17:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Do not change ore compression.

If you absolutely must, simplify the three ore types into one compressed type, but otherwise do not touch anything. The system is fine.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-09-02 17:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Grace Chang wrote:
Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).


This is obviously untrue, and we've been seeing that since Crius was released. Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. Furthermore the immense effort of compressing any reasonable amount of ore is not a fun addition to the game. Nobody wins when someone's doing an infinite number of round trips to their pos. Their pos has nothing valuble in it, their freighter doesn't either (and even if it did, it's ungankable unless they don't think to dock up) and the actual gameplay is basically a war crime.

Anyone who wants to verify what I say is correct needs only look at the actual compressed ore volume in jita. I have simply halted my T1 building until it's fixed, and I'm not the only one.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2014-09-02 17:24:21 UTC
A lot of the contrary opinions posted here are primarily from the mining side of the equation. My perspective is more from the producer's side -- there is simply not enough compressed ore on the market to satisfy even minimal levels of production. Consider the scale at which a miner works and a scale at which a producer works -- the producer needs many factors of magnitude more compressed ore than a miner, or a compressor-for-hire deals with on a routine basis. What seems like a lot to you is a drop in the bucket for us.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2014-09-02 17:29:35 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:
Ore compression is fine. If people can't find enough of it, the simple reason is that they do not pay enough for it to be an incentive (basic market rule and all).

The whining about the lack of compressed ore is basically people who want to buy compressed ore at the ore price +1 %. That is not going to happen. Set up a buy order at a good enough price and people will compress the ore and do the logistics for it.


Edit: simple fix for people that have "problems" to get compressed ore: set up a regional buy order for ore and go and compress it yourself. To bothersome? Well that is the extra that needs to be paid.


Ive got buy orders up in jita 24/7 and buying all the high sec ores. After 2 weeks of buying everything I ended up with roughly these minerals:
8 billion trit
1.5 bill pye
100 mil mex
15 mil isogen
30 mil nocxium

Slightly overdid it with the Trit, pye was okay, Nocxium was dead on funnily enough but Mexallon and Isogen wherent even 25% of what i would need for a weeks worth of production. And that is with constantly updating buy orders.

The biggest problem is that there just isnt enough ore moved in Jita market total. If i where to buy all the omber thats beeing traded over there I still wouldnt have enough omber. That is including Silvery omber and Golden omber.

Setting up buy orders and compressing ore my self? I think i would rather jump of a roof. I need like 400 to 500 max cargo freighter trips to move that ore. It wouldnt be so bad if i could just redfrog that all, but sadly they dont deliver to a pos, coz well game mechanics
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2014-09-02 17:36:45 UTC
More proof that the mineral market is fundamentally broken is the price of highend minerals. Highend minerals are reaching historic lows, with zydrine at 400 and megacyte below 1000. This is due to one, simple reason -- you need a large number of lowend minerals to soak up highends, and there aren't enough lowends to go around. Furthermore, with highsec miners (traditionally the largest producers of lowend minerals) reprocessing their ores locally, the problem is exacerbated -- the primary consumers of lowend minerals (nullsec) can't feasibly use the minerals due to their bulk.

Making compression ubiquitous and easy helps both the miners, who sell the minerals, and producers, which consume the minerals, work together to even out this imbalance.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#19 - 2014-09-02 17:48:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Grace Chang
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them.


So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate.

Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts.

You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.

Here is a thought:

a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back
b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal
c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****.

Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-09-02 17:50:20 UTC
Grace Chang wrote:

You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue.

go try to buy a reasonable amount of compressed mexallon and isogen at any price whatsoever
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