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Low class wormholes approaching End Of Life in Hyperion

Author
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#1 - 2014-08-31 14:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Timm3h
There is no TL;DR. This post will be long, and it should be long, because this is a complicated issue. Words and ideas written here are completely my own, and include a copy/paste from a post elsewhere (not already on the forums). They are representative of my experiences and insights combined with feedback from friends who enjoy this style of gameplay. I do not speak for a corporation or alliance.

This is not about butthurt, and it is not about ISK printing. It is about a set of changes intended to severely dampen the ease of generating safety through rolling high class wormholes (as these were and still are the easiest holes to roll) that instead left them untouched while stagnating small low class corporation life to the point of no return. I am already seeing my friends spread across smaller low class wormhole corporations packing their things, a quick and unfortunate end to something once enjoyed by the vast majority of wormhole residents.


I have already posted in Hyperion feedback threads, but I felt that this needed to be said in a new thread. Unfortunately, this is not about a single change: this is about how all of the changes mesh together, and how the mixture they create will soon destroy a way of life inside of our spaceship sandbox. This issue extends beyond our enjoyment of this play style; small group wormhole content fills a very important role within Eve, as wormholes were really the last place that small group content could be found and experienced naturally.

I am responsible for approximately 65-70% of the mobile depots lined up in front of the station, because the small and now rapidly-perishing community that is small group, low class wormhole residents are in desperate need of some understanding from CCP as well as players that lack the experience of living in wormholes.

To users that have not lived in a low class (C1-C4) wormhole in a very small to medium-sized corp (between 1 and 10 or so active members), the changes pushed through in Hyperion may seem like the correct way to deal with the perceived "safety" of wormholes, where any possible PvP is simply rolled out of the chain via capital ship/Orca/battleship spam and we can continue running our sites and making absurd stacks of money. Having lived and operated in both small group (C2 and C4) and medium/large group (C5) corporations, as well as a C3 on my own, I can reliably tell you that this is not the case for those small groups living in low class wormholes.

Rolling your static hole is not simply a tool for the sole purpose of avoiding PvP content; more often than not, rolling is used much more frequently to find PvP content. As the majority of low class residents will tell you, rolling holes to "do sites safely" is almost not worth the effort. Spending 12 to 20 minutes rolling my static just to do a site or two for half an hour? Almost an hour spent to make money that, when split between my corp mates, comes out to less than if I had leisurely done L4 security missions in the pristine safety of highsec? No, we aren't here for that nor do we pretend to be. We are living in these low class holes to find PvP content unlike fights that we could find in lowsec or nullsec, and you'll have a very hard time finding a low class corporation that would turn down good PvP just to make 100 mil split between 3 to 4 people.

With the new changes (jump distance increase based on mass, additional C4 W-Space static, more random connections, new frigate-sized connections) that should have been the ones to cripple the behavior perpetrated by larger WH entities in high class holes (rolling static safely and almost instantly to be risk-free while they ran their cap escalations for absurd amounts of money) have instead obliterated the chances of small group wormhole residents to find PvP content. With the new mass-dependent jump distance changes, rolling your static with an Orca or capital ship went from a dangerous chore to an extremely risky edge-of-your-seat activity. And yes, even before these changes it was very possible to catch a large ship rolling a hole. You had to be willing to commit despite the possibility of being rolled out of the chain when the larger ship collapses the hole, which not a lot of smaller wormhole entities are prepared to do on a regular basis. This change decimates the feasibility of rolling your static or unwanted wormholes for smaller corporations when combined with the other changes. Increased random connectivity, new frigate-only connects, and the new C4 superhighway serve to drastically increase the length of the common wormhole chain, turning what was once a spotty at best map into something that looks more like a region in highsec once properly mapped. A handful of people I know spread across small wormhole corporations (that are now in the process of disbanding, if not already finished with doing so) have been sending me images since Hyperion went through of 4-5 connections to their hole with a lone static, one or two of them being the regenerating mass frigate holes.

With all of this connectivity and new massive chains... why are the people who claim to be lusting for PvP content complaining? The reason is that changes like this, which are meant for the large high class entities that roll their static out with a dreadnought and then make a couple billion isk in 20-30 minutes, are at most experiencing a 30-40 second delay to them while low class residents are essentially frozen in place.

[Continued in second post]
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#2 - 2014-08-31 14:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Timm3h
Small wormhole corps have tighter engagement profiles than we would like, and only a fool (or a small group of fools) would rush headlong into an engagement we already know we have no possibility of winning or even enjoying. Large wormhole corps/alliances do not have this issue: when they roll a hole, they can do it with multiple capital ships on standby, and a moderate wing of support ships ready to step in on the off chance anyone shows up to try and tackle a roll squad. Smaller corps, on the other hand, now get to experience this vastly increased connectivity: this increases the chance for content, but more often than not it is content that is simply out of their league. Instead of being able to roll the chain and look for something more their size, random connections and frigate-sized connections become a new constant in the equation of low class life, and the new jump distance change means the possibility of rolling these holes in a timely manner is essentially discarded.

This is not about rolling for safety, it's about being able to search for content that is within the scope of your small group's limited engagement profile. People that do not want to sacrifice an Orca or capital ship just to have a chance at content in the next static will instead be forced to sit there and wait for the static to die or dip out of the wormhole and try to do something in K-Space, the same place that was stagnant enough to make them want to live in a wormhole in the first place. Small corporations have already started leaving in droves. Our ways of life and methods of generating content appropriate to the size of our active member pool have vanished, another set of names written off of the wormhole food chain. The chain will begin to collapse, medium-sized corporations will start being labelled as small time players, and the larger groups will grow further as the old low class residents look for any aspect of wormhole life to cling to. Being afraid to roll statics due to the inability to form up enough of a fleet to fend off the massive entities will be the feedback loop that kills wormhole residency until only the largest corporations and alliances remain.

This stagnation will, as we have already seen with nullsec, lead to a paradigm shift that twists away from individual player skill and effort and instead only rewards the amount of pilots brought to an engagement. Instead of the strands forming chains, we are beginning to form vast arrays of wormhole connections of all shapes and sizes. Looking at images of chain maps sent to me by friends spread across low class space reveals a simple fact: these wormhole changes were hand-crafted almost unanimously by people who live in nullsec, and they're re-shaping wormhole life into the only thing that they know.

What we need the most is for people (which includes CCP and players) to understand that this is not about unwillingness to adapt to new things. We low class wormhole residents pride ourselves on being able to adapt to the jump freighter-less nightmare that is tower life in a wormhole. This is about changes for wormholes created by people that do not live in wormholes, and how these changes not only fail to solve the primary issues of wormholes (high class holebears rolling statics (now with an additional minute or so of extra time) to be safe while they generate billions of isk at a time), but also manage to create a catalyst for change. A change in the direction of wormhole life. What was once an area of space where the smaller corporations could thrive, a chunk of lawless space to call their own far away from the massive groups of nullsec, there will soon be the attitude, content, and lifestyle wormhole residents tried to run away from.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#3 - 2014-08-31 15:23:17 UTC
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!
CHlM3RA
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-08-31 15:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CHlM3RA
If people honestly complained about "content" they would simply live in a C4 with a c3/c5 static connection. I can personally guarantee that you will become a highway. I live in a C4 with the same as I mentioned above and I've had nothing but people coming through this hole. I've quite honestly lost the drive to live in it because you're always looking over your shoulder making sure you're not going to get a blob of frigates or T3 cloaky cruisers with guardian support. Can I roll away from this? nope. Risking my orcas to close a hole is much more dangerous to me than it is to the people with a blob of T3, so I'm basically off playing another game until the hole is EOL or until the wh looks safe.

Explaining this to new members is just a huge hassle. In the end, incursions are really the best reward for almost no risk as opposed to wormholes which have a ridiculous amount of risk involved with little to nothing in return. So at the end of the day, I have to really ask myself, why even continue living in a wormhole when the reward doesn't even come close to the enormous risk? It doesn't. I MIGHT come close to making as much as an incursion runner but that's if I don't get caught by some big wh corp that complains that "MUH CONTENT IS LEAVING".

The reason people live/lived in wormholes is for the isk. Capital escalations were great but I think you're over estimating capital escalations and how risky it can be now. Even then, you're just doing your homesites, and idk if you've noticed but not a lot of sites are respawning for many people.

Is Hyperion great at creating content? yeah, if you lived in a C4 and you wanted to get your anus pushed in on a regular basis. I have no clue what the reasoning behind Hyperion actually was, other than to possibly cater to people who really don't have any affiliation with WH's in general.

Look at the brightside, atleast we got SIGs that stay static after downtime. lol....

All good things must come to an end.
Aquila Sagitta
Black Dragon Elite
Rate My Ticks
#5 - 2014-08-31 16:01:38 UTC
TL;DR Newly increased wh connectivity creates unknown system status for small corps with few scouts paralyzing them in fear. Also, massive chains that are usually mostly empty force low class scouts with non-perfect skills to dedicate much of their game time to scanning for content.


Anyone in wh space should max out their scanning skills. With lvl 5s you can scan out any wh regardless of sig count in about 5 mins. Personally I love huge chains so I'm enjoying all the changes so far except mass based spawn. I'm still fairly neutral on it. Generally large chains lead to pew of some sort but sometimes you get a massive dead chain. Nothing is happening in the 10-20 wh/ls/null you mapped out. Also I'd like to note that Blue-Fire generally scans these chains with 1-2 people. If we're lucky we got 3 scouts out lookin for stuffs.

my 2cents (theres no point so don't try to find it Cool)
Timm3h
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#6 - 2014-08-31 16:20:04 UTC
Unfortunately, it is not even so much as being paralyzed in fear as it is scouting these large chains rarely finding content that meets a small group's engagement profile. Larger groups are significantly more amorphous: ship down from T3s into cruisers with t1 logi, or even assault frigate wolfpacks. Reshipping a much smaller group might be less cumbersome than with larger groups, but instead of adjusting your gang's abilities like a "slider bar" for content, you're just shifting into a handful of pre-determined engagement profile "notches" that are still difficult to find fights for.

I do agree: small groups (especially small groups) should focus on getting their scanning skills to a very high level, as well as an investment in powerful scanning equipment. I am sure that a significant amount of small groups in low class have access to high-level scanners, which are very important tools for locating content when you run with such a small crew.

And yes, my comments do serve to over-estimate the amount of money made in high class wormholes after the deployment of Hyperion. Part of the reason for that is that capital pilots in high class wormholes have not adjusted to the changes (however poorly they affect high class W-Space), but the rest of the issue is that people are starting to leave wormholes. These sites are not being run because there are a lot of people out here that feel these changes affect how quickly they can find and enjoy PvE/PvP content. When you can't find content for a few hours, a lot of people lose their spirit and end up logging off to play another game.
Experiment 32423
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-08-31 16:22:40 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
TL;DR Newly increased wh connectivity creates unknown system status for small corps with few scouts paralyzing them in fear. Also, massive chains that are usually mostly empty force low class scouts with non-perfect skills to dedicate much of their game time to scanning for content.


Anyone in wh space should max out their scanning skills. With lvl 5s you can scan out any wh regardless of sig count in about 5 mins. Personally I love huge chains so I'm enjoying all the changes so far except mass based spawn. I'm still fairly neutral on it. Generally large chains lead to pew of some sort but sometimes you get a massive dead chain. Nothing is happening in the 10-20 wh/ls/null you mapped out. Also I'd like to note that Blue-Fire generally scans these chains with 1-2 people. If we're lucky we got 3 scouts out lookin for stuffs.

my 2cents (theres no point so don't try to find it Cool)


I don't see what this has to do with scanning skills. Yes, it takes me five minutes to scan the average wormhole but that doesn't change the fact that absolutely no one in lower class holes is dumb enough to run sites in the middle of the highway.

Smaller groups can no longer sustain themselves in lower class environments, leaving behind further dead space which no matter how fast you scan it, will still be dead.
Aquila Sagitta
Black Dragon Elite
Rate My Ticks
#8 - 2014-08-31 16:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Sagitta
Since we've moved to high class space we get most of our content from null or lowsec. We moved out of low class wh's because content was hard to come by 2 years ago. Wh space has never been populated enough to get your fill of content solely from jspace. Try branching out Smile

I see your point about low class wh'ers not being able to run sites which forces them out because of isk constraints
Experiment 32423
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-08-31 16:29:09 UTC
I think everyone already 'branches out' - is that a logical solution or reason to destroy lower class holes even more rather than finding a solution to increase their population?
Agrippa Arkaral
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-08-31 18:26:51 UTC
thanks chitsa
Agatir Solenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-08-31 22:46:02 UTC
calaretu wrote:
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!


Could you please explain what you are loving?

Looking at your killboard, it appears your corp enjoys shooting abandoned POS's. As for your blog, it seems that you are new to your C4. (You moved in after Hyperion) BTW, I'm gonna add it to my read list. It is nice to see someone excited about playing in wormholes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm just trying to hear your opinions as it relates to what you and your corp are doing. It appears you are enjoying the experience of mastering the unknown.

Unfortunately, some wormhole dwellers have already done that, and don't wish to start over.

Jack Miton
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#12 - 2014-08-31 23:11:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
calaretu wrote:
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!

youre in the severe minority.

Quote:
Looking at images of chain maps sent to me by friends spread across low class space reveals a simple fact: these wormhole changes were hand-crafted almost unanimously by people who live in nullsec, and they're re-shaping wormhole life into the only thing that they know.

well said.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Alundil
Rolled Out
#13 - 2014-08-31 23:44:39 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
calaretu wrote:
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!

youre in the severe minority.

Quote:
Looking at images of chain maps sent to me by friends spread across low class space reveals a simple fact: these wormhole changes were hand-crafted almost unanimously by people who live in nullsec, and they're re-shaping wormhole life into the only thing that they know.

well said.

Pretty much

I'm right behind you

HerrBert
T H E R A P Y
#14 - 2014-09-01 00:13:06 UTC
can confirm wormholes got more appealing.

Community-Challenge: Make Jack Miton sing a Duett with me. http://www.youtube.com/user/HerrBertism Jibbychiggawooooow - CSM 9 Corbexx

BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#15 - 2014-09-01 00:15:58 UTC
calaretu wrote:
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!



Same here, I'm loving it. Chains are never ending right now, we tend to stop scanning as they're so long things get confusing. We got our 1000th kill last night, so happy :D

People need to spend less time writing big whine posts and more time hunting.

Also I hope I can pew you again sometime :P
Jack Miton
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#16 - 2014-09-01 00:21:22 UTC
HerrBert wrote:
can confirm wormholes got more appealing.

for nullseccers like you? sure, i guess...

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#17 - 2014-09-01 00:58:04 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
Chains are never ending right now, we tend to stop scanning as they're so long things get confusing.


Yeah, you are right. Chains are never-ending. Never-ending with not a damn active person in them. Tons more to scan with no added benefit. So now, the people that actually like scanning and are good at it are already seeing burnout on the horizon. A fail on every level...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Kalseth
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#18 - 2014-09-01 02:30:32 UTC
Ok , this might be long and rambling ... and horably misspeled.

All of this is based of antidotale evendence. Just my experiance. To that note. I have played this game for a long time. With realtivly few breaks. All but a very little of that time have been in WHs. I joined some friends in a C5 at month 3 I think (biring a drake you will be fine they said). THe few breaks I have taken I would come back to the game run mabye 5 missions and look for a good WH group to join.

K space confuses me.

This is not about ISK or whatever. The only time I PvE is when others in my corp need me to fill a roll. Although my activity has tappered off over the last couple months due to new job and RL stuff what I "Do" in eve is scann and look for things to shoot. I love the submarine warfare that is WH PvE. I love useing the tools we are given to covertly find people doing things and then try to blow them up. I love being skilled enough at them so that when I HAVE to pull out my combats I can get people and tackle them before they notice and warp off. I love the mind games that are the common WH tacticks now adays to get fights. To bait ... to take the trap hopeing to out trap there trap. Sometimes winning sometimes loseing but allways being excited.

I still get a little thrill each time I jump a new WH ... is Team Pizza (they will know why I mention them) waiting for me on the other side?

What I love the most is what kind of community that this type of enviroment has built up that is unique to eve ... i think. Where I can blow someone up in a not trivial ISK worth of ship and the very next day be called on to help that same person and corp in a op. Where there are very few if any blues, where is fact it is FUNNER to shoot and kill the people you like, but as long as you are not a complet and total asshat WHs come out of the woodwork to help... mostly to shoot other WH's but with other types of help as well. Where it is not uncommon when a "puppy" finds his way into WH space during his scanning tutorial he promptly gets blown up ... but then instantly gets given many times what his ship was worth and advice about the game.

Ok, I like WH space. What the hell does that have to do with this topic ?

There are less and less things to do here. I do not scann as much as I used to but my corp still does. We find lots and LOTS of WH ... but nobody lives there anymore ... or if they do they do what I seem to do more and more. AFK in my pos whatching indi timers run whille playing solitare. I kidd you not I found myself doing just that for the first time today. Our chains in the mapper allready had something like 40 connections on it. People where out looking no point really for me to go out. I was having fun chatting with people in the many MANY channels I live in and shooting the **** in TS. THere was very little of any activity found.

The many chat channels .... filled with simular stories and with people seeing towers being taken down ... or takeing down there own.

I love this game... at least what I know of it. I acually just bought a FW toon to give that PvP a try sense what I was used to never happens anymore. At some point I am going to have to decide not to pay for a chat channel interface and find something else to play besides solitare.

I do not have a magic HEY DO THIS fix. I do not even know for sure that the recent changes have made things worse. It could be just longer and worse summer time blues then what we are used too. In fact i am the guy saying over and over they just happened give it some time. All i do know is that there is less "FUN" for me to find. It might say something about that fun involving me blowing up things or getting blowen up in shinny stuff (damn you Team Pizza) but there it is.

I truly hope that CCPs promise of whatching the metrics closly are true. That if all of this precived loss of WH activity is acually hapening that they address it soon. Not take months to do something but weeks to see it is happening and then instantly openeing up to the community to try to brianstorm some fixes. GIven the uniqueness of WH space once the exodus acully hits it will be hard to stop and it will just feed of itself until most of us are gone.
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
Chao3 Alliance
#19 - 2014-09-01 05:22:16 UTC
Like my sig indicates I am a solo player.

I have been living in WH on and off for the past three years, with some interruption to give a try again to null sec life. I decided to leave null sec and return to WH earlier this year...

I have been supporting Hyperion changes and still am after their deployment.

My WH is a C3 and I have been living there for now more than 6 months, and I am staying, and not taking anything down. If I am kicked out, I will evacuate using my exit strategy, with minimal losses on my part, and maximal time loss from the attacker for really no gains, outside of the awesome bragging rights of having kicked out a solo,player from a system (surely an immensely ego boosting feat!)

I never really collapsed any WH as I always found content from whatever connection was made to my space, and making the most of them. In six months, I have used my orca may be three times to collapse, but that was mainly because I neded a logistics path to refuel my pos.

Being the smallest unit possible in the game forces me to be really cautious, but I am fundamentally a pvper. My killboard does not matter, and i post as a forum alt as I do know first hand that opinions expressed publicly can trigger retaliation in game. This is part of how I participate to the game I love, while using what I can for my assets protection.

As a solo, I lose ships often because of being the smallest entity possible.
Still I chose this play style and keep to it because I grew tired of the tyranny of the killboards in the NS alliances I played for, and paying taxes for the right to follow the orders from above.

I make around 1 billion per week in my C3 from my various activities, and I am not using all its resources fully. This is plenty to cover my own SRP and steadily improve my fleet. I play with three alts which I mostly use for scouting and support. I can farm anomalies even when I have opened WH in my system, I simply keep a cloaky eye on the open WH and warp out of anomalies at the first sound of intrusion, and then I investigate the potential for a kill from there.

The best change for me in Hyperion is the mass distance, because I have multiple times before met neighbors collapsing their WH to be safe from me (lol) and had no real chance to engage them. As they now have to slow boat a bit, this opens up new engagements options for me and I do like it a lot, even if I have yet to take advantage of it.
Having already collapsed WH on visitors to cut them off their base and kill them, I am perfectly aware of the risks of getting stuck on the other side and the pain it is to travel back home, pain which is even more significant when playing as a solo as each of my alts as a role to play in my income stream.

These past days, I had two or three WH but nothing unusual once the flurry of frig size WH ended.

I have reworked my pve fleet composition to take in account the new change and have started farming again. I watch d-scan more often, and am becoming an even more cautious WH mouse to avoid the fat cats out there eager to get an easy gang up, and I continue killing the occasional visitor that does not know that WH mice are still a dangerous specie.

Overall, farming my WH in the past six months have been way too easy, and I welcome the new challenges, and opportunities, that Hyperion is bringing.

I disagree with the OP that the changes are going to affect the smaller groups more, but I do understand we may not have the same play style either. To each their own opinion, I just want to show that i do not recognize myself in the doom and gloom of the op.


Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project

BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#20 - 2014-09-01 05:41:41 UTC
Agatir Solenth wrote:
calaretu wrote:
I live in c4 and I love Hyperion!


Could you please explain what you are loving?

Looking at your killboard, it appears your corp enjoys shooting abandoned POS's. As for your blog, it seems that you are new to your C4. (You moved in after Hyperion) BTW, I'm gonna add it to my read list. It is nice to see someone excited about playing in wormholes.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm just trying to hear your opinions as it relates to what you and your corp are doing. It appears you are enjoying the experience of mastering the unknown.

Unfortunately, some wormhole dwellers have already done that, and don't wish to start over.



I'll jump in here.
I'm a C4 Cat with C2 and a new C1 static. Been in W space for like 3-4 years or something.

New statics on C4's are opening everything up a lot. We're stopping at about 4-5 wh's deep in the chain as it actually starts to get unwieldy any further. A single misnamed BM last night caused a good 10 minutes confusion :P
Previously C2-HS/C4's would be the end of the chain, now they just keep going and going.

We're seeing a TON more K162's from C4's though that'll die down over time as the initial excitement dies down. Pretty much have had at least 3 WH's in system at all times since Hyperion.

People out and about is about the same, which is lower than a year ago. Still don't see as many miners nor Pi Runners as I used to.

Rolling lower WH's is exactly the same as previous. Anyone who says differently either doesn't do it or is failing hard. BS's go in, BS's go out. Rinse repeat. The extra couple of seconds it takes to fly that BS the whole couple of extra km's is negligible. Haven't had to do a combat roll yet, but as we always do those in combat BS's, no big deal there.

Haven't had a frig WH in home system yet, seen a couple around the place. Would be nice to know if it's a frig WH from the K162 side. Any day I get to grab a frigate is a good day so when one of these does pop up, I forsee some fun.


Personally I have a feeling there's a lot of old W space vets who were burnt out on W space well before this and are using it as an excuse to finally leave. Things are just feeling a bit more open than previously and encounters certainly aren't completely disappearing. We got 17 kills across 8 systems last night. Content is certainly there.
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