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Possible change to make ISK generation more engaging

Author
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#1 - 2014-08-16 11:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Quote:
Certain activities in Eve generate a lot of ISK with minimal manual input; Moon Mining, Market Trading etc. - Alongside owning space, the most lucrative ways of generating ISK don't require you to actively be doing anything.

Conversely, active things such as mining, running missions/anomalies etc. generate very low isk and require hours of work for very little real gain. This feels illogical.

Right in the middle of these 2 extremes exist one of my favourite activities: Plexes.

8/10's and 10/10's can be great fun. They randomly appear, can be completed in 30-60 minutes and generate a lot of isk. But contention for these is high - they don't spawn often enough to feed everyone infinite isk - but they are much more challenging than normal eve gameplay. This means you are very engaged in the completion of a task, but the possible rewards are much, much higher.

The other issues with plexes though is how random they are: The random 'loot' value is player driven - so a few hours of searching for a plexes, some intense action in completing it and suddenly you get nothing. This is balance and makes the game more interesting.


My idea is to make more Eve content like plexes. Randomly appearing, high value, high risk, engaging for pilots. Here's a few examples:

Mining - No more asteroid Belts. Instead scanning down mining-anomalies becomes the norm. Mining ships can tear through an asteroid belt in under an hour, generating potentially 5-10 times what they generate in that time right now. However the higher risk factor is this: (Engaging RP mode) *Insert pirate faction here* Has a mining operation - you quickly kill the NPC miners and start stripping the belt, but waves of extremely dangerous rats warp in - meaning you need another toon/player to be running interference to destroy these. The faster you mine... the more rat spawns you trigger. Queue warp scrambling rats and potential Combat escalations. In Hi-Sec you might not be the only person interested in mining the site either…

Missions - Instead of infinitely chaining missions together you receive a much lower volume of mission with much more content to be completed. Random things may appear in here: High value ‘roids, hacking objectives etc. – This could include more interesting mechanics such as NPC fleets with Logi backup or “burner” style rats. Again this would result in much more potential reward, such as more possibilities of Faction loot or higher rat bounties. Perhaps making these more difficult so they can’t be solo’d reliably without insane ships/skills/bling.

As stated before, the frequency of getting these things would be greatly reduced, so more time is spent exploring and finding objectives to work towards completing with a group of people.

Why?

As it was stated in CSM minutes – they find PVE’ers are more prominent than PVP’ers in terms of number of subscribers, but they burn out hard. Similar to people who go straight into PVP combat – they burn out quickly too. The people who stay the longest are those who engage in group activities: making challenging content that is accessible outside of Null sec and isn’t as predictably campable as incursions in Hi-Sec is a good way to encourage this.

“Noob chat: I’m doing level 2 missions, what’s the next step?
Helpful Person: Lvl 3/4 missions – but these mean you need help, you should look into joining a Corp that run these.”

Further adding in a corporation standing requirement to accept higher level missions would force people out of the “noob corps” if they wanted to progress in the game and make real ISK. This would start to teach new players about player interaction and also dealing with content that is high risk/reward but also under contention from other players.

Thoughts?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2 - 2014-08-16 12:41:46 UTC
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-16 13:34:54 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
As it was stated in CSM minutes – they find PVE’ers are more prominent than PVP’ers in terms of number of subscribers, but they burn out hard. Similar to people who go straight into PVP combat – they burn out quickly too. The people who stay the longest are those who engage in group activities: making challenging content that is accessible outside of Null sec and isn’t as predictably campable as incursions in Hi-Sec is a good way to encourage this.

Thoughts?

you got it backwards, its not forcing people into competitive content where a new player has no chance to get anything you'll retain more subscribers, its just that the kind of players that like only to do non competitive, theme-park-like missions is less likely to get into eve play stile - and from this perspetive eve missions suck more than a hole in your space ship, nothing new that this kind of players run away ftl.
you cant do anything about that bar making eve into the kind of game he like, if you think its worth to keep him
bashing him in the head and forcing him in some play stile even farther from what he like will just make him run away faster.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2014-08-16 14:35:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.


Ice mining will likely earn you more these daysBlink
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#5 - 2014-08-16 14:43:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.


Ice mining will likely earn you more these daysBlink


A single moon wasn't what i was talking about - Multiple moons are passive income that all adds up. As there is little interaction, that just printing free isk.

Running multiple accounts costs multiple subscriptions, but it only takes 1 account to look after potentially dozens of moons.

Both however are besides the point: Hands on isk-making is repetitive and only worthwhile if done solo (sharing bounties is a waste of time basically). That seems counter-intuitive in a universe where player interaction is the biggest part of the game.

"Lets all talk in corp chat and do entirely unrelated activities because teaming up results in wasting isk"

Wormhole sleeper sites are a bit more what you'd expect from a game like Eve... but the experience gating for getting into them is exceptionally high... and WH life is reclusive in a single-server-universe so that instantly backfires.
Felix Judge
Herrscher der Zeit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2014-08-17 16:58:37 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
[...]but it only takes 1 account to look after potentially dozens of moons.

Both however are besides the point: Hands on isk-making is repetitive [...]


Looking after dozens of moons is also repetitive.
The only non-repetitive activities are the non-scripted ones.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-08-17 22:06:43 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.


You can count the amount of people that make as much isk mining lowsec ice on a fingerless hand.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#8 - 2014-08-17 22:14:20 UTC
This post would have been way more interesting if it said "let's make isk loss more engaging". Like drone using ship capacitor while deployed or sitting in station having a clean air tax or ice mining being like gas mining or explode when depleted or concord podding criminals or suspects dealing with faction militia instead of concord(faction police vs concord swat team)

Is that my two cents or yours?

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-08-17 22:16:47 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.


You can count the amount of people that make as much isk mining lowsec ice on a fingerless hand.


I mine ice afk [in null] hoping to draw CODE out.

Currently, however, the AT has seen more CODE members than me Roll
Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-08-18 04:36:46 UTC
Before getting too far into the business of 'earning isk' keep in mind a few things.

Doing things like stations trading and selling loot doesn't generate new isk. It only causes isk to change hands from player to player.

Doing things like acquiring loot from NPC spawns, mining, and salvaging doesn't generate isk. It generates material. This material is then sold in one form or another. See above point WRT making isk.

Doing things like collecting bounties on rats and collecting mission rewards generates new isk.


Both the generation of new isk and material needs to be limited and carefully balanced with the sinks provided. Destroying ships and modules is an example of a material sink while paying clone upgrades, taxes & fees, spending isk with LP, are examples of isk sinks.

The ways of 'earning isk' in the largest quantities will be by obtaining it from other players. This is why doing something like market trading, provided you have the input capital, can net you the biggest return. Then mining & manufacturing as you are getting the isk off of another player in exchange for the material you acquired. Lastly will be mission running and ratting because these are the true sources of isk that need to be balanced with the existing sinks.

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Asinar
The Hotdog
#11 - 2014-08-18 07:02:29 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Just want to correct you on something before I get started. Moon Mining is not a lucrative way to make isk. It's supplementary income at best.

A decent moon is about equivalent to lowsec ice mining, which is really not impressive at all. The only thing is that it's "on" all the time so long as you do the maintenance on it.

As for Station Trading, if you're hoping to make that less lucrative compared to other forms of income, you will fail. Station Trading is directly related to the market, which is intertwined with everything else. Buffing missions = buffing trading, buffing mining = buffing trading, and so forth.

As for the rest, all you are doing is proposing massive inflation. Which is a pretty big nope.


Ice mining will likely earn you more these daysBlink


A single moon wasn't what i was talking about - Multiple moons are passive income that all adds up. As there is little interaction, that just printing free isk.

Running multiple accounts costs multiple subscriptions, but it only takes 1 account to look after potentially dozens of moons.

Both however are besides the point: Hands on isk-making is repetitive and only worthwhile if done solo (sharing bounties is a waste of time basically). That seems counter-intuitive in a universe where player interaction is the biggest part of the game.

"Lets all talk in corp chat and do entirely unrelated activities because teaming up results in wasting isk"

Wormhole sleeper sites are a bit more what you'd expect from a game like Eve... but the experience gating for getting into them is exceptionally high... and WH life is reclusive in a single-server-universe so that instantly backfires.


In terms of PVE, it is mostly true that doing it solo is more profitable, or with 2 accounts. Considering the pace of the game, it's easily doable and almost becomes mandatory. Missions, exploration, lower class Wormholes.
The 'MM' from MMO is lacking on the PVE-side.
I've run missions with corpmates etc but that was when I had low skills and they had low skills. After training a while...the game moves in the opposite direction to what you expect from an MMO. Less grouping.
Lv5s are not feasible for many.
For group-oriented PVE you need to go to low/null but how many PVEers do that?
Incursions aside. Those have a high barrier of entry on the other hand.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#12 - 2014-08-18 07:50:35 UTC
Asinar wrote:
[
For group-oriented PVE you need to go to low/null but how many PVEers do that?
Incursions aside. Those have a high barrier of entry on the other hand.

Incursions could have a substantially lower barrier of entry IF they changed the contest mechanics such that running unshiny and/or newer player training fleets didn't guarantee any site that ends up contested by a fleet of vets is always lost.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#13 - 2014-08-18 08:33:08 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Asinar wrote:
[
For group-oriented PVE you need to go to low/null but how many PVEers do that?
Incursions aside. Those have a high barrier of entry on the other hand.

Incursions could have a substantially lower barrier of entry IF they changed the contest mechanics such that running unshiny and/or newer player training fleets didn't guarantee any site that ends up contested by a fleet of vets is always lost.


Incursions fit in perfectly with the Ethos of Eve. Even though it's PVE, it's competitive with other players.

I should have outlayed the end-game for this in the beginning: You could be able to generate good income from only a few hours of play *IF* you have a good infrastructure in place and work with a group of people. Right now grinding is all there really is to isk generation.

Other games offer a capped number of activites to complete every day tha generate much higher than normal cash/hour. But most other games also offer instanced ways to do this - meaning there is no contention.

The way I've proposed aims to give a similar end result without removing competition between players for resources.