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level V skill requirements with a bonus per level: why?

Author
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1 - 2014-07-07 22:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
In the case of T2 ships that receive a bonus per level of a skill, but also have the skill level V as a requirement

such as the scimitar and Minmatar cruiser skill V

In your opinion, what are the pros and cons of the SP barrier?

I am of the opinion that level V skill requirements are too prohibitive, when training each level provides a benefit anyway, and the main reason for training a skill should be the bonus. ...and as a hard requirement and a barrier, it places the incentive of flying the ship too far off.

What I'm suggesting is skill level V requirements should be reduced to IV or lower. This would result in a wider spread of effectiveness in ships such as logistics and T2, from what they are now with full skills to partially-skilled and less capable in their role.



don't worry about sparing my feelings. I'd like to have this discussion, and/so strong language and opinions are OK.



updating with a list of images linked in this thread, for future reference.

Shortened Skill Requirements for Golem
Racial T2 Skills
Level V Prerequisites Table
Rain6637
NulzSec
#2 - 2014-07-08 00:53:44 UTC
The conventional belief is that a ship should be max skilled in its role, and the justification for skill level V requirements is "because you get to have the benefit." if that's true, why are they mandatory rather than optional?

by requiring a ship to be max skilled while also giving it a bonus based on that skill, isn't it a direct cause of the alpha and logistics barriers that plague fleet gameplay?

it's not just T2; another example is missile launcher operation V for caldari offensive systems.

why can't a young character have a fail-skilled tengu, when they would be happy to pilot it sooner, and others would be happy to kill it?
Liendral
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-07-08 01:22:09 UTC
The lvl V skill requirement is to train the higher T2 skill. You can then lose that lvl 5 later (podded with insufficient clone), but still fly the T2 ship. So, if you refuse to retrain the cruiser skill to 5, then you can still fly your logi, but with slightly reduced ability as penalty.

Rain6637
NulzSec
#4 - 2014-07-08 01:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
that's a valid outcome, but back up... why can't a player decide to fly a flawed ship to begin with?

if someone is impatient and wants to fly a harpy with Caldari frigate III and assault frigates I, why not let them do it?

Liendral wrote:
The lvl V skill requirement is to train the higher T2 skill.

that notion, that dogma is what I'm questioning. why is it this way, when it could be rope to let players hang themselves... something EVE claims to allow players to do, and is also known by other names like "depth" and "choice."

those of us who have trained these skills lose nothing in the event of a reduction in prerequisites...
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#5 - 2014-07-08 02:37:49 UTC
There is a similar question that comes up often about Advanced Spaceship Command.

The answer to that thread always ends up as: "People need to be protected from themselves, it gives them time to think about what they are doing."


TBH, I think all these pre-req skills were a design feature, to give pilots a goal to achieve, and separate the noobs from the guys who actually achieved those goals.

I'm on both sides of the fence on many of these pr-reqs...
I think a line has to be drawn somewhere... and the logical place would be 'Level V' and you can move up. But I'd like to see the achievement mean MORE than just 'pre-req made'
Rain6637
NulzSec
#6 - 2014-07-08 03:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
thanks for stopping in. I caught some of your posts regarding advanced spaceship command V while searching for a similar thread addressing this topic.

yeah, the idea of protecting pilots by requiring skills doesn't fit in with the rest of EVE's game design or reputation. (since when does CCP care about protecting players from loss through PVP)

not only does it take a long time for T2 skills, but in that time players are liable to lose interest. ...and even if they make it they're being robbed. for me, Caldari BS V for the marauder skill was a big one. just plain daunting. when a player makes it to the marauder skill, the bonuses per Battleship skill level are suddenly "there" and they aren't able to experience the improvement level-by-level.

in the case of a skill level III "across the board" marauder... say, a Golem, with missile launcher operation III, Torpedoes I, cpu management III, Caldari BS III, Marauders I... a T2 hull made of butter, would that be such a bad thing.

if there was a chance an assault frig was skilled to III, with poor core skills, wouldn't more players take that fight?

a fleet of T2 and T3 ships, with some pilots skilled less-than-perfectly... that would make things a bit more interesting, wouldn't it? add some holes to find in the fleet comp, instead of the current guarantee that a pilot is tanky if they're in a T2 or T3

Advanced Spaceship Command isn't one of the requirements that directly overlap with a bonus per skill level on a hull, but it's guilty of turning a benefit into a requirement.

T2 skills already have the protection in place of not being allowed on trial accounts. if it's a reason to upgrade, it's another reason why that fruit should hang a little lower Big smile
Mashie Saldana
Jamgu Initiatives
#7 - 2014-07-08 15:47:08 UTC
Well sometimes you will need to put in a bit of effort.

If you want to only train to level 4 then you get to enjoy all the lovely T1 items in game, the rest of us are happy to specialise to get into T2 ships and suck up the required training.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#8 - 2014-07-08 16:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
I'm not here to ask for a reprieve. I have 12 mains training, and I assume everyone like me who has upgraded from a trial account has accepted the commitment, so please show me the same courtesy for the sake of this discussion.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-07-08 16:29:30 UTC
T2 represents specialization. Specialization means training something to V.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#10 - 2014-07-08 16:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
and training something to V means T2

do you see the circular reasoning in this?

true statement:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
T2 represents specialization.

true statement:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Specialization means training something to V.

neither one proves why skill level V is required, which denies the range of specialization...

if specialization is a goal, why does it coincide with the starting point
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2014-07-08 20:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Rain6637 wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Specialization means training something to V.

neither one proves why skill level V is required, which denies the range of specialization...

if specialization is a goal, why does it coincide with the starting point

"Specialization" is a lack of range.

CCP has declared "thou shall train level 5 for T2 ships". There is only one exception, because CCP didn't want to hand out such a huge amount of skill points: jump freighters.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#12 - 2014-07-08 20:34:00 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Specialization means training something to V.

neither one proves why skill level V is required, which denies the range of specialization...

if specialization is a goal, why does it coincide with the starting point

"Specialization" is a lack of range.

CCP has declared "thou shall train level 5 for T2 ships". There is only one exception, because CCP didn't want to hand out such a huge amount of skill points: jump freighters.



why would jump freighters be an exception for the skill point reason. It was lv4 freighter needed for along time maybe forever its not a recent change.

and it makes the ships more interesting than just having it as a flat bonus. to whatever it is.

Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-07-08 21:39:23 UTC
OP i get what you're saying, and its a valid point, but getting into a T2 ship should feel like a major step. It will feel less major if you could undock the thing at day 1 as long as you bought it with a PLEX or something. Leave it alone.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#14 - 2014-07-08 21:43:02 UTC
I meant range in terms of Spec Skill 1 - 5. are you saying that yes even this range is not what was intended under the T2 designation? and that some pilots will not have complete hull bonus benefits on the T2 hull?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#15 - 2014-07-08 22:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Lady Rift wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
CCP has declared "thou shall train level 5 for T2 ships". There is only one exception, because CCP didn't want to hand out such a huge amount of skill points: jump freighters.

why would jump freighters be an exception for the skill point reason. It was lv4 freighter needed for along time maybe forever its not a recent change.

and it makes the ships more interesting than just having it as a flat bonus. to whatever it is.

Jump freighters are tech 2, ergo they should require racial freighter 5.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We aren't adding Freighters 5 as the Jump Freighter requirement, at least not for a good while. We considered it, but the prospect of giving 7 million skill points extra wasn't appealing.

This is a consequence of:

“... if you could fly it yesterday, you can still fly it today."

"... we need to make sure we reimburse those properly to follow the motto of “if you could fly it before, you can fly it now” that we have been stating for quite a while now."

i.e. CCP tries to avoid skill changes that prevent you from piloting the ship you might be sitting in.

Lastly:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
As such, we want to streamline ship training by implementing the changes below:
* Increase progression consistency by ensuring all navy ships and entry requirement for upper classes have a skill level 4 requirement, while tech 2 has a level 5 requirement.

This was later changed before going live to: level 2 for navy ships, and level 3 for upper classes.

Level 1: T1 ships of that class.
Level 2: Navy ships of that class.
Level 3: Entry to next class.
Level 4:
Level 5: T2 ships of that class. [Specialization]

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tech 2 philosophy is all about specializing into a specific hull and role
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-07-08 22:41:20 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
neither one proves why skill level V is required, which denies the range of specialization...

if specialization is a goal, why does it coincide with the starting point

Yes it does.

The point of specialization requiring level V of the "base" skill is that you can't quickly specialize into a large number of things. That's what specialization means, you get really good at one thing at the expense of getting really good at other things. Choices and stuff.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#17 - 2014-07-08 23:02:53 UTC
this has been a great discussion and I thank you for it, I think I have enough info to organize it into an essay to be submitted on a player news site. Also addressing these topics. o7 o7
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#18 - 2014-07-09 03:20:07 UTC
Can we just take away all goals so no one has any reason to play? Shocked

I don't see the logic in a game with no progression.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#19 - 2014-07-09 08:24:55 UTC
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#20 - 2014-07-09 16:41:49 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Can we just take away all goals so no one has any reason to play? Shocked

I don't see the logic in a game with no progression.

waiting for a skill to finish is not playing. it's waiting.

if your idea of playing is one action, followed by months of inaction, you should probably start playing savings accounts. you put money in and wait for it to grow.

as for the skill requirements, they are useful for producing artificial scarcity. if everyone could fly a jf, black frog would go out of business. if everyone could fly command ships, you might as well remove battlecruisers. if everyone had perfect refining skills, you may as well remove them entirely, and so on.

I should buy an Ishtar.

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