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Changes to in-space bracket lists

First post
Author
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-06-20 17:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Hey all,

We have made some changes to the in-space bracket list and would love to get your thoughts on it.

from another post I wrote:
For brackets that are floating in space, it’s very similar to the old bracket list, but on the edges, we have a box similar to the bracket list that you currently have on TQ.
The reason is that on the edges there are often other UI elements that the bracket list needs to overlap, and it becomes very messy and hard to read without the background.
Please see these screenshots to see where we are at right now.

This is still work in progress and we are iterating on it, and we would really like your help with it. We are hoping to put it onto a test server as soon as possible (hopefully next week), and I hope you will log in then, give the brackets a try and tell us what you think.
We are open to and asking for feedback, but please keep it constructive and to the point.

Here are some of the changes that have been made in the new version:
  • The picking of the brackets has been improved
  • As you can see from the screenshot, full entity names are always visible
  • The lists are now "stickied", and stay until some other bracket is moused over or the mouse is clicked.
  • The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).
  • One of the reasons for the background in the box was to make it easier to read the bracket names against bright nebula/sun, but in order to remove the black background, we have now developed shadow for the text that will make it easier to read the text in those situation.

Please test it out on Sisi, tell us what you think, what you like, what you don't like and don't forget to explain why, it's way easier to fix stuff if you know what is the problem Smile


Edit: the 15 brackets are the first 15 in the alphabet (same as before Kronos). We could increase that number a bit.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Tikitina
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-06-20 17:52:04 UTC
When will we get a bracket system using the icons in ISIS?

Using those brackets with customization of colors could be interesting, especially if we could have an optional tactical overlay that removes the models but leave the brackets.


Penny Ibramovic
Wormhole Engineers
#3 - 2014-06-20 18:13:08 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).


How is this determined?

Sometimes you need to pick out the POCO around a planet with 20+ moons, or a specific moon on the same planet, and if the bracket list doesn't show it as a top-15 pick it becomes a frustrating experience of not being able to go where you want to as you mouse off and mouse over repeatedly in the hopes of prompting a different list.

I've experienced this frustrating both in space and in the system map on numerous occasions.
Tek Handle
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#4 - 2014-06-20 19:31:15 UTC
Would be neat to have it still scrollable withe the mousewheel (when hovered over the brackets in the list) without showing a scrollbar or anything. Maybe something like numbers on top and below to display how many brackets are hidden to the top/bottom. When you scroll, don't make it fluid more like.. display/hide one more bracket for each "scroll tick".
Darkblad
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-06-20 20:25:50 UTC
Calling for CCP Ytterbium to do the dirty work sticky this thread.

Also: With blobs of brackets like in the screenshots, what mechanics influence the choice of brackets in the list? I guess it's the 14 brackets closest to the one hovered while the list ist triggered?

NPEISDRIP

Alexis Nightwish
#6 - 2014-06-20 22:21:19 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).

Can you just make this a user modifiable variable with a range between 1 and 65536 instead of setting it to a static arbitrary number like 15?

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2014-06-20 22:24:09 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).

Can you just make this a user modifiable variable with a range between 1 and 65536 instead of setting it to a static arbitrary number like 15?

well, it can't be crazy long because of screen size (it's placed above the moused over bracket if there is space for the whole list there, otherwise below).

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#8 - 2014-06-21 02:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
If 15 is going to be the limitation there HAS to be scrolling.

There are many occasions where there's more than 15 entries to look at. Otherwise I love the new look, WAY easier to read in both format and from the background.

The Drake is a Lie

Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-06-21 08:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
In-space bracket list tooltip stays after jump
The in-space bracket list tooltip is still shown after jumping through a stargate. You have to click something to make it disappear.

Reproduction Steps
- Hover over stargate, press D for "jump" and click on stargate in the tooltip.
- Ship jumps
- Tooltip is still shown after jumping in the new system

Bug report send.

Overall it's a good change. Keep it up. Smile

Edit: And the Stargate Icon (outer circle) shown in the tooltip is a bit too big. You can see while hovering over it (which highlights the icon) or if it's the top icon.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-06-21 11:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Unlike bittervets, I really found the scrolling to be an immense quality of life improvement and the black background made reading the labels against the sun or nebulae much easier. I really hope you restore the scrolling, and although it's hard to judge from the screenshots the text shadow seems to be an improvement over nothing but I don't think it's pronounced enough to read against the sun.

EDIT: About scrolling, how about putting the scroll bar on the left now that there's no box? I know it's not standard placement but it makes sense as the list is left anchored and has no frame.
Jinn Aideron
#11 - 2014-06-22 12:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jinn Aideron
CCP karkur wrote:
...

Firstly, I trust you guys know best, and are in a better position to consider all play-styles than I am.


Secondly:
Not a fan of truncated, fixed sorting-order lists. (It's boxing yourself in, certain things you'll never get to see.)

I liked the dark background: There are already lots of blinding/contrast issues in certain environments. Desire for "space-shades" pops up every so often; still wishing for that brightness slider once or twice alluded to.
/feedback

Have a nice day! Big smile

Stealth deletes are bad.

Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#12 - 2014-06-22 16:56:29 UTC
Here's some free advice CCP, because god only know when the CSM logged in the last time and actually pvp'ed, and you'll never get any viable suggestions from them.

1) Add a setting, so that the list will display "a7-2" instead of "asteroid belt 7 - moon 2", this will cut down on clutter. Give us the ability to customize the information that pops up.

2) Once you allow for these shorthand names, you can make the notification be a 2-column one – 15 in each column, so 30 objects in one window.

3) Don't even try to balance this UI interface over anomaly rats. It's impossible. Nothing will replace the overview for that, focus on a new way to provide adequate bracket information for static objects - belts, moons, planets, etc.

4) I can already see which way the wind is blowing: step 1 - provide information via popups, step 2 - remove the overview. It's not going to work, will never work, just give up.

5) Focus on fixing the last UI changes you did. Why is that when I jump into a system, scan the anomalies, sort by distance, warp to one of them, and then have to guess which one I should warp to next, because the distance still hasn't updated to my new location? Why?
ISquishWorms
#13 - 2014-06-23 11:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
Marian Devers wrote:
Here's some free advice CCP, because god only know when the CSM logged in the last time and actually pvp'ed, and you'll never get any viable suggestions from them.

1) Add a setting, so that the list will display "a7-2" instead of "asteroid belt 7 - moon 2", this will cut down on clutter. Give us the ability to customize the information that pops up.

2) Once you allow for these shorthand names, you can make the notification be a 2-column one – 15 in each column, so 30 objects in one window.

3) Don't even try to balance this UI interface over anomaly rats. It's impossible. Nothing will replace the overview for that, focus on a new way to provide adequate bracket information for static objects - belts, moons, planets, etc.

4) I can already see which way the wind is blowing: step 1 - provide information via popups, step 2 - remove the overview. It's not going to work, will never work, just give up.

5) Focus on fixing the last UI changes you did. Why is that when I jump into a system, scan the anomalies, sort by distance, warp to one of them, and then have to guess which one I should warp to next, because the distance still hasn't updated to my new location? Why?


^ All of this.

Agree do not remove the overview if that is where this is going. I still prefer what we had originally prior to these changes.

Picking up on point 5 of above. Why is it when I jump into systems the sites and anomalies still do not always get populated in the scanner window. I often still find that I am getting 'No results found' when infact if i close and reopen the scanner window the sites will show. How about fixing these kind of bugs?

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.

Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#14 - 2014-06-23 12:51:55 UTC
It's less annoying now, but still somewhat intrusive and covering the middle of the screen with information I already have in the overview - where I actually want it.

I don't really have any good suggestions for how to make this better except stop trying to replicate the overview as a floating popup in the middle of the screen.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#15 - 2014-06-23 15:27:01 UTC
Dear CCP Karkur,

I love what you are doing! That said, there is a tiny flaw in the concept.

The best example would be to point to a cluttered ca area on SiSi, which can be full of shipwrecks and drones until one of our lovely helpers wave their magic wands and make it disappear.

Now if you want to use one of the wrecks as a strategic warp-to point, your own ship gets in the way, at least until the column pops up, where you can slide down in a list of items to select from.

I hate to say this, but your own boat should not be on that list, unless you feel really bad about yourself and want your boat to target and shoot itself Big smile

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#16 - 2014-06-23 16:04:30 UTC
Marian Devers wrote:


1) Add a setting, so that the list will display "a7-2" instead of "asteroid belt 7 - moon 2", this will cut down on clutter. Give us the ability to customize the information that pops up.


At this point I'd advocate the removal of all the Roman numerals on celestials. While they do provide some some distinction between the moon and the planet they cause quick readability issues.

Sure, most of us understand how to read them, but we'd rather not. There's a lot of room for confusion between the 3 planets of VI, VII, and VIII. That being said, if you want to go forward with a compressed version that just uses abbreviation such as P5 - A4 then I think some extra effort should be made to:

A) Make it toggleable to "Planet 5 - Asteroid Belt 4", probably an option under Msc on the overview settings
B) Provide some sort of indication to new players what these abbreviations mean. Perhaps default to having abbreviations turned off but allow for older players to use them since they now P is planet, M is moon, A is asteroid belt, and S is station.

The Drake is a Lie

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#17 - 2014-06-23 16:08:50 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
It's less annoying now, but still somewhat intrusive and covering the middle of the screen with information I already have in the overview - where I actually want it.

I don't really have any good suggestions for how to make this better except stop trying to replicate the overview as a floating popup in the middle of the screen.


Ya know there's a separate option on TQ already for bracket group popups delay that you could just set to max delay.

But, ya know, good luck ever picking a specific moon to warp to without having your overview ****** by the all celestial option.

The Drake is a Lie

Jaxley
The Tuskers
#18 - 2014-06-23 16:15:58 UTC
Pretty niche use case, but the list used to stay open when you hit the D-Scan button. Can you reintroduce this behavior?

Was pretty useful for warping by clusters and scanning them. Faster warping ships now make it tough to eye-ball some "drive-by scans".

Otherwise I prefer the current iteration on Sisi over what there's on TQ right now.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch and Tea
#19 - 2014-06-23 18:20:10 UTC
Were moons ever put back in to be able to be bracketed?

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Alexis Nightwish
#20 - 2014-06-23 18:24:52 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
The scrolling has been removed, and now we list only the top 15 brackets (same as the old bracket list).

Can you just make this a user modifiable variable with a range between 1 and 65536 instead of setting it to a static arbitrary number like 15?

well, it can't be crazy long because of screen size (it's placed above the moused over bracket if there is space for the whole list there, otherwise below).

I want a crazy long list that covers my screen from top to bottom. I generally only have it up for a few seconds to find the object I'm looking for so I don't care if it covers everything at the time.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

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