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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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DUST and Incursions

First post
Author
Commander A9
Brand Newbros
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2014-05-25 18:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander A9
Hello, fellas. I've learned of rumors that with Legion coming out, DUST may get thrown onto the chopping block. That aside, perhaps new life can be breathed into DUST, and likewise incursions of which have been begging for an expansion for two years.

What might happen if DUST 514 and incursions were synced up?

From a lore perspective, incursions involve planetary abductions launched by Sansha's Nation on planets throughout New Eden's constellations. DUST 514 mercenaries can be offered contracts from CONCORD to stop these abductions in a player-vs-environment format. Likewise, Sansha's Nation can offer contracts to DUST 514 players to help facilitate those abductions, to maintain the player-vs-player team-based perspective of DUST 514.

On the incursion side, perhaps new sites can be implemented which call for clearing out areas over planets, then bringing in a Destroyer or other ship with orbital ammo and launching a bombardment on a Sansha-controlled target on the planet's surface? Like a Sansha staging area, or drop zone, or captured spaceport? Course, this negates requiring a DUST player to call for a bombardment if he's not around planet-side...but, it might give people an opportunity to make use of their orbital ammo.

Of course, this means changing some mechanics (and some lore aspects so Sansha's Nation actually deploys ground soldiers; maybe to shut down planetary communications or defenses), adding new missions, and opening up orbital bombardments to players outside of faction warfare and in high-sec, but as I have observed, there are DUST mercenaries throughout high-sec who have found themselves fighting each other in high-sec areas. Shouldn't they have an opportunity to receive orbital fire support in high-sec as well? Especially if they end up fighting over a planet affected by an incursion. Every planet throughout high-sec has a satellite over a district which otherwise would allow pilots to lock onto in order to provide orbital support.

Also, I do remember the idea of transporting DUST mercenaries via EVE transports, deploying them to attack stations and players' planetary colonies, having them control orbital guns to destroy capital ships over planets, using Marines and Militants to defend capsuleer assets, and even executing hostile boarding actions of ships had been discussed...that and the DUST items are available for purchase in the EVE economy (supposedly to be given to DUST operatives at a later date) so I really don't see DUST officially getting axed anytime soon.

As for specific content ideas, a friend in Live Events channel mentioned some aspects:

Wedgetail tells me that during incursion live events and the early days, Sansha incursions were dealt with in 3 ways:
*catching shuttles on the ground and disabling them at the cost of also destroying local civilian infrastructure
*attempting to take the carriers by parking Mammoths on top of the carrier hull to drill through the hull and insert breach teams
*station defense/facility raids where Nation had beacons on the ground that fleets could not locate or target

I think there was something about Legion dealing with loot and salvage...perhaps Legion operatives can comb these battlefields to find anything left behind?

And later, Valkyrie pilots could shoot down Sansha transports or fighters?

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-05-25 18:51:11 UTC
Trying to kill multiple birds with a single stone?

Not bad

I would love to see ground pounders take on the Sansha. It would be like zombie wave mode. Connecting and tying these two mechanics together would be a huge undertaking but a lot of fun

I like it

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-05-25 20:21:22 UTC
Good concept, the only Emphasis on the points i made to you earlier is in if this is to work and work well the two games do need to be properly integrated, this simply means that 'there are roles for both in the context of the other'

these roles need to be simple, in that both groups see them happening as they happen, a battleship flying outside a station window while you're raiding a station,

the transport you boarded from being destroyed, leaving no reinforcement line and a hole into open space,

DUST needs its niche same as eve, its interactivity is the way this is going to happen and this makes attention to detail very very important both for design and implementation. (this does not mean numbers change, this means DUST soldiers calling on EVE pilots in real time on an as needed basis something originally talked up but never properly designed or implemented)

the more options you can give people for overcoming a challenge the more successful this game will be.

i look forward to seeing the results.
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#4 - 2014-05-25 20:25:31 UTC
I support this idea, this could be the intermediate link Dust/legion needs to set a next step in integrating both games together.

It would also add an extra dimension to incusrions, allowing it to get some fresh content with some more/new events/sites based around these groundforces like the ones Commander A9 suggests.
The PvE side can also be an incentive for attracting some new players, who enjoy teamwork in a PvE enviroment (both in dust/legion as in eve)

All in all it would help to enrich the eve universe, both in stuff to do as in possible lore interactions, a move I support heartily.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology

Cap'n Schmitty
#5 - 2014-05-25 21:32:31 UTC
I made a thread over in the Dust forums for something very similar long ago. The thread is now locked due to inactivity, but might be worth a look for further ideas.
steve flecher
Subsidy H.R.S.
#6 - 2014-05-25 22:07:29 UTC
Oh yea! This would be awesome! It wouldnt be hard to come up with all sort of different types of matches. Having something like a planet based MTAC factory that could even work a lot like the capture the flag matches that already exist.
Jacob Katruun
Kiith Naabal
#7 - 2014-05-25 22:10:31 UTC
This sounds awesome!

I like the idea of 1. fighting NPCs in a FPS in the EVE universe
2. Fighting Sansha's Nation on the ground: these guys are supposed to be invading and making zombie-slaves out of the civvies (I'm not too confident on the lore, but that's how I understand it) So it makes more sense to fight them on the ground anyway.

More: maybe have a NPC transport haul the FPS guys droping them off at stations and stuff that have to be infiltrated while a starfleet in EVE is fighting off the Sansha reinforcements. This would take some co-ordination and I'm not sure how it would work. Perhaps have the FPS guys join the fleet and the mission start when the gate is taken, not sure.

Anyway, this sounds awesome

and it needs to be on PC

-Jacob Katruun
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-05-25 22:15:59 UTC
They dont really have to do much to make it possible. They just have to make a diffeent category that works similar like FW on dust. Either you sign up for concord or sansha's nation. You earn LP and can spend that on fancy suits, weapons etc.
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#9 - 2014-05-25 22:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Sagitta
What if there was a game mode where eve - dust/legion interaction was needed to complete the objectives.

For example:
Ground pounders have to locate and disable stealth/shielding generators of a complex. Then they need mark if for distruction with a beacon that a capsuleer can lock onto from orbit.

Now running with this idea what if:
  • planet infrastructure is linked to sov upgrades?
  • alliances could upgrade the defenses of planetary infrastructure?
  • blockade runners(or some new ship) carried strike teams to hostile planets?
  • these strike teams(spec ops) upon completion of there objectives start a timer similar to a reinforce timer?
  • the spec ops set of an alarm in the mission that in turn sends notifications to sov holders that infrastructure is under attack?
  • those alliances then scramble to protect their assets?
  • the rf timer is triggered?
  • this sets up a major battle on the ground and in space?


  • Lets go deeper!

    A spec ops strike team is inserted onto a hostile planet via capsuleer drop pod. The spec ops objectives are to recon and locate an important infrastructure building and then place a beacon for orbital strike. This mission would be a stealth mission by nature. If you set off the alarm the holding corp/alliance then gets a notification that there under attack. This gives them the opportunity to defend there assets from the spec ops. This also gives spec ops the ability to put the infrastructure in rf with no warning IF they don't trigger any alarms.

    Lets say the alarm is sounded. Alliance gets notification and scrambles there own mercs that get inserted via drop pod the same way the spec ops did. Or maybe there's an upgrade that lets you keep clones on the ground that can be used to clone jump to for defending mercs. Any ways a skirmish happens but the spec ops succeed in locating the objective and placing there beacon. Meanwhile the defending alliance has tried to occupy the space above the planet. There was a small skirmish between capsuleers but again the attackers are able to get a destroyer in and launch an orbital strike.

    The orbital strike puts the structures shields into reinforced mode. Now planning for the actual attack can begin!

    When the structure comes out of rf it can be damaged, disabled, or destroyed. Damaged structures would still function just give reduced bonus depending on amount of damage. Disabled and destroyed would give no bonus obviously but disabled structures could be repaired. Structures can be damaged and disabled by ground pounders but only an orbital strike by a dreadnaught would destroy it. Like-wise capsaleers could also damage or disable the structure if they used something other then capital sized weapons to initiate the orbital strike. An orbital from large weapons would disable, while an orbital from smaller weapons would damage. Medium size weapons would decrease bonuses by 75% while small weapons would only do 25%.

    I'm being purposefully vague with what kind of sov infrastructure would be attackable. Personally I'd like to move IHUB infrastructure to ground based stuff. Maybe could do a two stage battle where if the ground battle is won the fight then goes to the orbiting IHUB where mercs get to battle it out on a space station! I think it would be fun to be able to attack sov upgrades and destroy them inside the IHUB with mercs. But idk what CCP is gonna do with sov revamp, maybe upgrades will be completely different.

    [edit] just realized my entire post has nothing to do with incursions welp
    Wedgetail
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #10 - 2014-05-26 00:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
    Aquila Sagitta wrote:


    Now running with this idea what if:
  • planet infrastructure is linked to sov upgrades?
  • alliances could upgrade the defenses of planetary infrastructure?
  • blockade runners(or some new ship) carried strike teams to hostile planets?
  • these strike teams(spec ops) upon completion of there objectives start a timer similar to a reinforce timer?
  • the spec ops set of an alarm in the mission that in turn sends notifications to sov holders that infrastructure is under attack?
  • those alliances then scramble to protect their assets?
  • the rf timer is triggered?
  • this sets up a major battle on the ground and in space?




  • several issues on the first read through with this that make it a poor sell by any standard.

    (capitals denote emphasis on keypoints not 'loud voice')

    first, it deals with null sov and passes it into the hands of another domain, dust and eve are independent games that work as a team simply because they can, not because they must - 2 games not 1.

    planets mean very little to space bound empires, we rule the space, not the planets in it, and for the most part there's nothing on those planets we care about beyond PI, we have no reason or need to use them for anything else nor would one be welcome.

    if you want to fight over IHUBS board the damn IHUB. it's in space, where it's most convenient to oversee space, for the capsuleers that use them, the dust bunnies if anything yield to this fact not capsuleers to them. do not force a change to one game to make another more appealing, design the newer game to make use of features already present in the older so that they work in greatest cohesion in a way that makes the most sense to both teams.

    (CAPSULEER boards an IHUB with a transport ship and - through a new EvE contract mechanic this in turn activates a mission option available to DUST players - move the soldiers to the target not the target to the soldiers)

    extending this: again you're fighting over timers, we (players) hate that mechanic, we tolerate it because we must to allow what is a fair playing field, to design warfare mechanics around them is not advisable. if anything limit missions to targets that have meaning already before trying to rearrange pre existing systems to give meaning to stuff that doesn't exist.

    for example: attack pos towers and stations to disable mining and production, raid PI factories to destroy or requisition resources, disable IHUB infrastructutre without impacting sovereignty/ownership itself. all of these things allow micro level cooperation as well as major operations, secure planet resources and offload them to the ship in orbit before making an escape, etc etc.

    avoid systems that only function on the premise that there will be a large 'holy crap we can use this to advertise how many people play our game!' encounter the only thing this will cause is too much strain on the players and thier gameplay by having requirements to do any given task too high. (the whole idea of covert ops is so large fights don't need to happen in the first place)

    both forms must have thier own UNIQUE functions as part of a SINGLE cohesive whole

    it falls to the DUST soldiers to deal with operations where the preferred sheer destruction of capsuleers does not apply, they capture things, sabotage things, steal things in order to weaken capsuleers over time prior to fleet engagements.

    it falls to CAPSULEERS to fight over space itself, sovereignty warfare, POS seiges, all of these things involved in removing an enemy presence falls to them. but the two can work in support of each other to make each other's job easier WITHOUT BEING DEPENDENT ON EACH OTHER TO DO IT.

    personally, this reeks of the logic we've seen CCP trying to use for the past three years and it really hasn't worked for them, far too focused on the idea that they can make these large numbers happen just for the sake that they can, and ignoring that fact that in trying to force them it's literally squashing out the vast majority of the smaller scale game play elements that make eve playable to begin with.

    EvE is not 'we bring thousands of people!' it's 'we could bring thousands of people' it is an option, often a welcome one because we like involving as many as we can, but certainly not a necessity.
    Commander A9
    Brand Newbros
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #11 - 2014-05-26 00:27:13 UTC
    Apparently, the idea of incorporating DUST and incursions into each other has been around for almost a year.

    https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=104216
    https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=920537#post920537

    The DUST community seems to be interested in the idea; perhaps others will follow?

    Recommendations:

    -enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

    -add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

    -STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

    Join Live Events!

    Wedgetail
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #12 - 2014-05-26 00:27:34 UTC
    Aquilla: I apologise here in the event my post appeared harsh or poorly targeted, i tried to cover as much ground in a single block as i could manage and several points may have gone off center in the process, if so clarify what it is you envisioned and let me know where i was off the mark, and I'll amend my statements as necessary :)
    Aquila Sagitta
    Blue-Fire
    Great Blue Balls of Fire
    #13 - 2014-05-26 05:59:40 UTC
    You jumped around quite a bit so was little hard to follow but you make good points. The whole IHUB thing was really just an after thought I threw in there. I was kinda thinking that sov upgrades would be changed to be planetary based instead of having IHUBs. But like you said it would just be easier to build stuff around existing mechanics then make new ones.

    I guess what I was trying to get at with requiring interaction was more meaningful interaction. Currently its very boring for capsaleers to interact with dusties. You team up with your dust merc(s) and they join a battle thats hopefully close by. Go the 6-10 jumps which by that time the match is usually half done. Then you sit at a beacon and watch a timer countdown for 3 mins where you can then shoot the planet. You may or may not get killmails/damage notifications. I did it for a bit with a friend but other then the lp which was super easy and a lot for the effort put in I got pretty tired of it after a couple days.
    Herzog Wolfhammer
    Sigma Special Tactics Group
    #14 - 2014-05-26 09:21:10 UTC
    This is a great idea. It would also add new aspects to incursions and open them up for more players. if transport is required, those transports will need plenty of support. I don't think a transport is going to get through a wave of Raa Thalamus alone.


    Bring back DEEEEP Space!

    Wedgetail
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #15 - 2014-05-26 10:29:31 UTC
    Aquila Sagitta wrote:
    You jumped around quite a bit so was little hard to follow but you make good points. The whole IHUB thing was really just an after thought I threw in there. I was kinda thinking that sov upgrades would be changed to be planetary based instead of having IHUBs. But like you said it would just be easier to build stuff around existing mechanics then make new ones.

    I guess what I was trying to get at with requiring interaction was more meaningful interaction. Currently its very boring for capsaleers to interact with dusties. You team up with your dust merc(s) and they join a battle thats hopefully close by. Go the 6-10 jumps which by that time the match is usually half done. Then you sit at a beacon and watch a timer countdown for 3 mins where you can then shoot the planet. You may or may not get killmails/damage notifications. I did it for a bit with a friend but other then the lp which was super easy and a lot for the effort put in I got pretty tired of it after a couple days.



    which means we have the same objective :)

    from the very beginning the whole selling point of DUST was that it could work together with EvE and this as you've pointed out has never been realised in any meaningful form - A9's idea is good because it's attempting to address that, incursions are a good medium because of the timing, they are battlefields that are around for weeks at a time, giving fleets and dust bunnies ample opportunity to launch coordinated operations.

    as you pointed out, fights do not last long - this is true for EvE as well as DUST with most fights (on EvE's side) being decided in less than 15 minutes, so if field assets aren't there with a direct communication line inside of the first five minutes there simply won't be coordination :D

    by focusing a lot of the interactions within a single war space, (incursions/faction war) i think the aim is/was to amplify the number of times these two forces are able to work in conjunction, it was simply never built well enough to actually get it done =/
    Jandice Ymladris
    Aurora Arcology
    #16 - 2014-05-31 08:39:36 UTC
    On 'changing lore aspects to fit' aka recton, I doubt this is necessery.

    One: Sansha does have groundtroops and deploys them. This was part of the succes of the Nation link tamperings, at some locations capsuleer/players ignored the ground aspect, causing Nation to succeed, while on the locations where people RP'd groundforces being deployed, Nation had no such succes or very limited succes. These uplink events were at the later stages of the sansha live events.
    So from live events it's known that groundforces can affect Sansha operations

    Two: during the live events, there have been a few occasions where people got a hand on Sansha nanites. Coupled with the fact they don't work isntantly & apparently need a Nation ship close to do their work (as implied in the Uplift chronicle )
    You can use this as a way to 'inoculate' troops against Sansha nanites, thanks to progress made over the years of analyzing captured nanites (Nanite wars, creepily close to biological warfare Shocked )

    So all in all, there's a precedent for Sansha ground trooops and there wouldn't be a need to rewrite lore to make it fit. To explain lorewise why groundtroops are only deployed much later in incursions, you can explain it away as the empires finally discovering an effective nanite to counter the Sansha ones, to inoculate their troops with.
    Let this counter-nanite have some drastic long term side-effects and it's perfectly explainable why only dusties/legionnites can use it. Their short lifespan in their physical bodies make sure the long term effects never come into play.

    Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology