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Fast and efficient L4 Runner ?
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Sargon of-Akkad
#1 - 2014-05-09 17:07:12 UTC
Hi everyone,

I would like to start running L4s, but, even after hours of reading, I don't know if there is a ship that is better than the others to do so ?
If there is a best ship, have you a good fit for it ?

Thank you.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#2 - 2014-05-09 17:18:26 UTC
Would help if you included what skills you have trained. Maybe a link to eveboard.com?
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-05-09 19:13:49 UTC
It really depends on your style of mission running (blitz or clear and salvage) & what you are flying against. There is no single "best", but there are a few ships which shine.

I'm fond of the Mach myself. The RNI, Golem, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Pali & Domi are all good in my book.

If you are in Amarr space, I'd start with an Apoc, and see if you like it. If you do, then train your way up to a Pali or a Nightmare. (The Paladin is currently a bit better than the Nightmare, but the Nightmare is about to be rebalanced to make it more competitive.)

If you don't like the Apoc, give a Domi or a Raven a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-05-09 19:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
If you're asking, I assume you're new. Proceeding on that basis, there is nothing better in bang/isk terms than a MJD domi (ab)using sentry drones at extreme ranges.

Faction drones will do fine until you can use T2 ones.

Guristas are your biggest threat with the infini-range torps. Other than that, MJD out, fire up Sebo, proceed to spank rats with sentries whilst sipping beer and watching $TV_SHOW_OF_CHOICE
Sargon of-Akkad
#5 - 2014-05-09 19:42:17 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Would help if you included what skills you have trained. Maybe a link to eveboard.com?


Well, it doesn't matter, I made this post so I know what skills I would have to train Blink

Cassandra Aurilien wrote:
It really depends on your style of mission running (blitz or clear and salvage) & what you are flying against. There is no single "best", but there are a few ships which shine.

I'm fond of the Mach myself. The RNI, Golem, Typhoon Fleet Issue, Pali & Domi are all good in my book.

If you are in Amarr space, I'd start with an Apoc, and see if you like it. If you do, then train your way up to a Pali or a Nightmare. (The Paladin is currently a bit better than the Nightmare, but the Nightmare is about to be rebalanced to make it more competitive.)

If you don't like the Apoc, give a Domi or a Raven a try.


I am more in the clear and salvage type, as friends would often come with a Noctis.
What is "RNI" ?
I heard about factions rebalancing (I love sansha style so I was happy to heard so), so the nightmare will become a very good ship to L4 running ?

afkalt wrote:
If you're asking, I assume you're new. Proceeding on that basis, there is nothing better in bang/isk terms than a MJD domi (ab)using sentry drones at extreme ranges.

Faction drones will do fine until you can use T2 ones.

Guristas are your biggest threat with the infini-range torps. Other than that, MJD out, fire up Sebo, proceed to spank rats with sentries whilst sipping beer and watching $TV_SHOW_OF_CHOICE


So, AFK missioning ? What about the new NPCs aggro-ing the drones ?

_________________

I heard a little about the vargur, is this information outdated ?

Thank you all for your answers ! ;)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-05-09 19:47:25 UTC
AFK is a bit much, its just super-safe.

You can remote rep drones taking heat at those ranges without trouble.

I don't believe you can full on afk, it's just as a new starter (holding assumption) then it's impossible to beat in my book to get a start on padding your wallet.

Vargur kicks all kinds of arse but takes a lot longer to get into.
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-05-09 20:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassandra Aurilien
Sargon of-Akkad wrote:



I am more in the clear and salvage type, as friends would often come with a Noctis.
What is "RNI" ?
I heard about factions rebalancing (I love sansha style so I was happy to heard so), so the nightmare will become a very good ship to L4 running ?


_________________

I heard a little about the vargur, is this information outdated ?

Thank you all for your answers ! ;)


The RNI is the Raven Navy Issue. It and the Golem & Domi are probably the most flexible mission running ships. Missile ships have selectable damage, so you can run against anything equally well. Drone ships (Domi) are flexible and easy to use, so they fall into that category as well. The Mach fits that bill as well, as a blitzing ship. It's speed incarnate, with selectable damage.

If you are going to clear and salvage, after the rebalance, the Pali will probably be a better choice. The Nightmare can handle level 4's perfectly well, though... Managing the cap on a Nightmare when new though, well, it's a Nightmare. Lasers and shields both eat cap, and by design, the mare has limited cap... Laser ships only are great against Sansha & Blood Raiders, however. In Amarr space, you'd do fine.

The Vargur is great. I prefer the Mach to it, however. It's a question of mobility vs. tank.

Honestly, the best thing to do is play around with a few different factions cruisers or frigates, and decide what weapon systems/tanking style you like, then pick a ship based on that. It doesn't take long to get weapons/ships/tank to level 3, just to get a feel for how it fits together.

You'll want to start with a T1 battleship, and get your skills up a bit before you switch over to something more expensive. Domi, Raven, Maelstrom or Apoc would be the best choices for a starter, in my opinion.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#8 - 2014-05-09 20:44:32 UTC
I think that the Rattlesnake will be a beast after the Kronos-expansion. I would actually want to try it with heavy drones (gecko anyone?) and cruise missiles, should grant around 1200-1300 paper DPS out to 60 (or 84km with a drone link aug).
This is omni-tank and with sentry drones (it'll need a CPU implant, and counting that the new faction DDAs will require less CPU):
[Rattlesnake, Killer]

Damage Control II
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

100MN Afterburner II
Pith A-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Drone Navigation Computer II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Garde II x5
Bouncer II x5
Warrior II x5

This is skill-intensive,but you asked for a best fit and it's versatility incarnated. A good start would be a Maelstrom, Dominix, Raven or Apocalypse. It depends on what you like to kill, and how. Different pirate factions use different kinds of E-war, have a specific damage-profile (which is the same damage they're the most vulnerable towards. This last part in particular makes or brakes some ships and fits, so it's important when you want a good start. Most battleships can be fitted to become a good mission runner against a specific enemy (scorpion would probably be horrible against all of them).
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#9 - 2014-05-09 21:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Estella Osoka
The Nightmare makes an excellent L4 mission boat. If you like that ship, skill for it. Use the ISIS as a guide.

EDIT: It's too bad that the Rattlesnake won't be able to make use of the new Gecko drones effectively.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#10 - 2014-05-09 22:25:44 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
The Nightmare makes an excellent L4 mission boat. If you like that ship, skill for it. Use the ISIS as a guide.

EDIT: It's too bad that the Rattlesnake won't be able to make use of the new Gecko drones effectively.


How do u mean, not efficient? What's the downside with using a rattlesnake instead of a, say, dominix when it comes to geckos?
Damon Messer
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-05-09 23:28:10 UTC
1c3crysta1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
The Nightmare makes an excellent L4 mission boat. If you like that ship, skill for it. Use the ISIS as a guide.

EDIT: It's too bad that the Rattlesnake won't be able to make use of the new Gecko drones effectively.


How do u mean, not efficient? What's the downside with using a rattlesnake instead of a, say, dominix when it comes to geckos?

i read somewhere that gecko's already have post kronos drone stats. so i think the kronos drone skill changes will reduce your paper damage(unless you already took that into account)


@OP let me just say this words of wisdom passed onto me, "Don't fly what you can't afford to replace".
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#12 - 2014-05-10 01:28:57 UTC
Unfortunately, there isn't really any, as you asked, best general L4 ship. Most ships that are commonly used, like the Macharial, CNR, Marauders, Domi, SNI, Rattlesnake, Tengu, ect. are chosen because they stand at the top or near the top at specific areas of concern, but none of them are the best at all or even most qualities.

For instance, the Tengu is great because it bring cruiser-level maneuverability to an environment often populated by slower battleships, thus making it great for fast-paced blitzing. The Domi brings excellent use of sentries which allows it to work well in a variety of ranges and rat types without the need to rely on ammo-guzzling guns and is very affordable. Marauders can tank against ridiculous damage like God himself is at the helm without the need to pimp out the fit and still have good firepower and generally excellent projection of range. The Macharial, now that ship is like a bloodthirsty, high-speed killer. Not the greatest in raw shield tank, but makes up for it in deadly firepower and its speed ensures any weakness in projection becomes an afterthought. You can even armor thank it which gives it points for flexibility.

Each ship has their individual flavors and the ones commonly used and/or suggested are the ones that "taste" especially great. Some require more than average experience in the hull but net good return in the long run, while others are simple to operate yet elegantly efficient. My advice; pick one you like and study its advantages and weaknesses (none of these or other ships are perfect in every way). Find the one that seems to have an advantage or two you like and the drawbacks you could care less about and run with it. Ask yourself which ship seems to fit YOUR needs/wants/personality.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-05-10 04:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Damon Messer wrote:
1c3crysta1 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
The Nightmare makes an excellent L4 mission boat. If you like that ship, skill for it. Use the ISIS as a guide.

EDIT: It's too bad that the Rattlesnake won't be able to make use of the new Gecko drones effectively.


How do u mean, not efficient? What's the downside with using a rattlesnake instead of a, say, dominix when it comes to geckos?

i read somewhere that gecko's already have post kronos drone stats. so i think the kronos drone skill changes will reduce your paper damage(unless you already took that into account)


@OP let me just say this words of wisdom passed onto me, "Don't fly what you can't afford to replace".



Two changes for the Rattler in Kronos ...

1) the single "super gecko" with 3.75 damage and HP will do all up 6% less damage than the current two x normal gecko
2) My current Rattler can deploy an additional Ogre II or Garde II for even more damage, this will be lost/

However - the summer patch rattler gecko will have 3.75 times a normal Geck hitpoints that more than makes up for the DPS loss in terms of staying on the field longer and hence more effective applied DPS


@ the OP. My mission alt flies both a Rattler and a Domi. the new rattler looks awesome but you need both Gallente and Caldari skills plus good missiles and good drones plus shield tanking so not really a new player option. I suggest a MJD sentry Domi. In the summer patch the drone skills are being revised meaning you can get good results from skills to IV so its less of a train then before. The big bonus for a new player is you do not need to know mission triggers etc in a MJD sentry boat you just jump to range and start killing stuff.

Note that Domis traditionally armor tank but if you are working towards the skills for a Rattlesnake eventually, the Domi can shield tank fine.
Sargon of-Akkad
#14 - 2014-05-10 10:11:22 UTC
Well, thank you all for your answers !
As I am Amarr, I already have some skills in Amarr ships, more of that, I have good standing with one of the NPCs Amarr corp, so I will principally shoot at blood and sansha for now (I don't want to go back to L1, missioning for antoher corp in anoter faction What?). So, according to what you've all said, the Apocalypse seems to be a great choice for the moment. After what should I move to an Apoc Navy Issue or directly aiming the Paladin ?


Sobaan Tali wrote:
For instance, the Tengu is great because it bring cruiser-level maneuverability to an environment often populated by slower battleships, thus making it great for fast-paced blitzing.


As I said, I kinda love the Sansha style, so I had already thought cross-training Caldari (I think I will focus on the Apoc for now, according to the advice you've all given me). When I heard about T3, it is Tengu, or Locki, never the Legion or Proteus, so I thought "Maybe one day I'll fly a Tengu".
That's why the "For instance" make me asking you this question : will CCP change the T3 soon ?
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-05-10 16:11:44 UTC
Sargon of-Akkad wrote:
Well, thank you all for your answers !
As I am Amarr, I already have some skills in Amarr ships, more of that, I have good standing with one of the NPCs Amarr corp, so I will principally shoot at blood and sansha for now (I don't want to go back to L1, missioning for antoher corp in anoter faction What?). So, according to what you've all said, the Apocalypse seems to be a great choice for the moment. After what should I move to an Apoc Navy Issue or directly aiming the Paladin ?


Sobaan Tali wrote:
For instance, the Tengu is great because it bring cruiser-level maneuverability to an environment often populated by slower battleships, thus making it great for fast-paced blitzing.


As I said, I kinda love the Sansha style, so I had already thought cross-training Caldari (I think I will focus on the Apoc for now, according to the advice you've all given me). When I heard about T3, it is Tengu, or Locki, never the Legion or Proteus, so I thought "Maybe one day I'll fly a Tengu".
That's why the "For instance" make me asking you this question : will CCP change the T3 soon ?


To answer your first question... When you feel comfortable with it. Losing an Apoc is not that expensive, losing a Navy Apoc can be. Marauders take quite a while to skill up to, so it would almost certainly be worth getting a Navy Apoc in the meantime. Alternatively, you could save up for a Nightmare.

T3's should be up for rebalance soon. The Tengu is probably currently the best missioning T3, but I've always preferred the Legion, it's a bit more fun to fly, though far less efficient. (Beam & Pulse legions can't fit drones... It can make things interesting...) The other T3's tend to be more used in PVP & WH PVE, rather than level 4 missioning.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#16 - 2014-05-10 16:38:02 UTC
Sargon of-Akkad wrote:
Well, thank you all for your answers !
As I am Amarr, I already have some skills in Amarr ships, more of that, I have good standing with one of the NPCs Amarr corp, so I will principally shoot at blood and sansha for now (I don't want to go back to L1, missioning for antoher corp in anoter faction What?). So, according to what you've all said, the Apocalypse seems to be a great choice for the moment. After what should I move to an Apoc Navy Issue or directly aiming the Paladin ?


Sobaan Tali wrote:
For instance, the Tengu is great because it bring cruiser-level maneuverability to an environment often populated by slower battleships, thus making it great for fast-paced blitzing.


As I said, I kinda love the Sansha style, so I had already thought cross-training Caldari (I think I will focus on the Apoc for now, according to the advice you've all given me). When I heard about T3, it is Tengu, or Locki, never the Legion or Proteus, so I thought "Maybe one day I'll fly a Tengu".
That's why the "For instance" make me asking you this question : will CCP change the T3 soon ?


As Cassandra said, it's dependant on your wallet. The navy apoc isn't that much better, some more hp, more grid/cpu, more cap and an extra low slot. The bonuses and highslots remains the same, which are the greatest influences. The regular apoc will do fine for starters and the paladin is way off because of the skill requirements.
Sargon of-Akkad
#17 - 2014-05-10 17:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sargon of-Akkad
Thank you again all, I will aim the apoc.

I have another matter to discuss with you. I'm currently in a Prophecy to do L3s. Do you think Harbinger would do better ?
My fit is something like 4 heavy pulse, drone link augmentor/DNC, AB, large cap batteryx2/med rep, 3hardener according to the mission, 3 drone damage amplifier. (Too lazy to connect to look at the real fit Lol)
I took the prophecy without thinking too much, as I heard some time ago that Drones are good for missions (Was doing L2s in Arbitrator). But, as they can now get aggro, and as I am doing mission in Amarr space, maybe the Harbinger will do better ? (I have read this somewhere).
I don't use sentry drones with my prophecy though.

And so, as I write as I think I'll clarify my question What?
Will the Harbinger do better in L3s than a Prophecy or a sentry Prophecy ?

Edit:What about a Prophecy with missiles launchers ?
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-05-10 17:37:44 UTC

havent read all previous post.
just seen rattlesnake and missions, it will get better but i personally still dont like instant damage drones and delayed damage missiles mixed.

Sargon of-Akkad wrote:
Thank you again all, I will aim the apoc.

I have another matter to discuss with you. I'm currently in a Prophecy to do L3s. Do you think Harbinger would do better ?
My fit is something like 4 heavy pulse, drone link augmentor/DNC, AB, large cap batteryx2/med rep, 3hardener according to the mission, 3 drone damage amplifier. (Too lazy to connect to look at the real fit Lol)
I took the prophecy without thinking too much, as I heard some time ago that Drones are good for missions (Was doing L2s in Arbitrator). But, as they can now get aggro, and as I am doing mission in Amarr space, maybe the Harbinger will do better ? (I have read this somewhere).
I don't use sentry drones with my prophecy though.

And so, as I write as I think I'll clarify my question What?
Will the Harbinger do better in L3s than a Prophecy or a sentry Prophecy ?

Edit:What about a Prophecy with missiles launchers ?


depends on your skills, i think a proph with good drone skills might rock l3 missions. But when u have better gun skills go for harbinger. For Aggro change i havent seen it happening much in l3 just watch for elite frigs
Sargon of-Akkad
#19 - 2014-05-11 08:19:11 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

depends on your skills, i think a proph with good drone skills might rock l3 missions. But when u have better gun skills go for harbinger. For Aggro change i havent seen it happening much in l3 just watch for elite frigs


So, since I have some drones skills because I was doing L2s in Arbitrator, an Harbinger would'nt do better than my Proph ?
And what do you think of my actual fit, maybe I should go for a sentry Proph kitting with missile ?
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-05-11 16:57:36 UTC
Sargon of-Akkad wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:

depends on your skills, i think a proph with good drone skills might rock l3 missions. But when u have better gun skills go for harbinger. For Aggro change i havent seen it happening much in l3 just watch for elite frigs


So, since I have some drones skills because I was doing L2s in Arbitrator, an Harbinger would'nt do better than my Proph ?
And what do you think of my actual fit, maybe I should go for a sentry Proph kitting with missile ?


Both are viable. Which is better really depends on your style. I have more experience with the Harbinger than the Prophecy. In my experience, the Harbinger really shines with T2 Pulses. (Scorch ammo is amazing.) Without them, the Prophecy might be an easier choice.
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