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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-05-09 11:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hello everyone. Those of you who were at the Fanfest FW roundtable heard a bit about some improvements to FW complexes that we have planned for Kronos. Time for some details!

We are making changes to three aspects of the FW complexes:

  • New Large Outposts
  • NPC and Spawning Changes
  • Cloaking prevention within capture range

I want to make it clear that these changes are intended to create a more interesting environment for FW plexing and to make pvp fits more competitive with "farming" fits on an lp/hr scale, but are not intended to somehow bring an end to "farming" or other evasion tactics. We have no intention of hard blocking warp core stabs or cloaks from complexes. Players should have tools to help mitigate risk, as long as those tools require tradeoffs.

New Large Outposts
We've received a lot of requests that we introduce more opportunities for larger ships to participate in FW. The relative rarity of large FW complexes has been an issue here.

In Kronos we're adding Large Outposts to the dungeon distributions. Like other Outposts these complexes will always respawn in the same system after a delay. This means that unless the large outpost in a given system has been run recently, there will always be at least one large complex available.


NPC and Spawning Changes
When we recreated the FW complexes in Retribution we removed the old waves of NPCs and replaced them with single spawning NPCs with extremely low DPS and active tanks. These NPCs are essentially intended to be dps tests that gently encourage use of combat fit ships for running the complexes without getting in the way of PVP. We actually wrote the initial design with the intention of having these NPCs respawn on a delay after they are killed, but some broken content tools forced us to shelve that design at that time.
One of the content tools that Team Space Glitter made for the Ghost Sites in Rubicon actually fixes this hole so we are going ahead and returning to the original design for the Retribution FW NPCs.

As of Kronos, the NPCs in FW complexes will respawn on a randomized timer after the previous NPC is destroyed. There will never be more than one NPC spawned at once.
The respawn timer will be between 90 and 180 seconds for Novice and Small complexes, and between 90 and 300 seconds for Medium and Large complexes.

We're also making some tweaks to the NPCs themselves. The dps of each NPC is being decreased even lower than their current levels, by between 20 and 40%.
We are also increasing the active repair rate of the NPCs and decreasing their raw hitpoints. This will ensure that higher dps fits have an advantage in how quickly they can clear the NPCs and get back to capturing the plex.


Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.


These are obviously not the only changes we could make to improve FW and they are not the only changes we want to make as we move forward, but we still believe that this package of complex improvements will benefit FW significantly.
We look forward to hearing your feedback!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Takanuro
Space-Brewery-Association
#2 - 2014-05-09 11:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Takanuro
1st

With regard to the large plexes, are the spawn rates of all plexes being adjusted so the potential capture points available over a day are the same? Otherwise it will mean systems can be contested more quickly and I just raise the question so you can consider whether this is desired or not?

Only ever 1 NPC and it doing less DPS seems a bit lame. In large plexes at present you can often get 2 battlecruisers, and this change will mean it's easier for smaller ships to complete the larges, countering the intent of encouraging larger ships to come to play somewhat.

No cloaking but still being able to cloak on the warp-in. Huzzah :)

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!

Chitsa Jason
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#3 - 2014-05-09 11:16:18 UTC
Shocked

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Niden
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-05-09 11:22:54 UTC
Glad to see this made it through. Also glad that the FW / LS community is listened to. Thank you :)
Azami Nevinyrall
172.0.0.1
#5 - 2014-05-09 11:25:17 UTC
The inability to cloak within capture rage was needed!

+1

...

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#6 - 2014-05-09 11:26:35 UTC
1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?
2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates? Blink
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2014-05-09 11:30:09 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?

Yes, these large outposts are ungated just like the current large plexes

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates? Blink

We're aware of the increase in potential flip speed. However with the respawning and harder repping NPCs slowing capture rates of each plex we think the overall change will be acceptable. We'll be keeping an eye on feedback of course and tweaking respawn rates would be very easy if needed.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#8 - 2014-05-09 11:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
I look forward to fights with bigger ships. I'm less sure about the changes to NPCs. There go my days of being able to run any 'ol plex in a #Derptron.

Edit: EVE forums need hashtag functionality

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Niden
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-05-09 11:34:11 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
1) Will Large plexes remain ungated?
2) The plexes currently respawn 30 minutes after they are closed. With new large plexes as a thing the total number of plexes a system has is increased by 33%. A dedicated attacker can flip a system much faster as a result. Can you slow the roll on plex respawn rates? Blink


I don't see why this is a bad thing.
Khador Vess
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#10 - 2014-05-09 11:34:12 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Cloaking prevention within capture range [/list]


  • I read this and supressed a giant ‘Squee’ of delight. +1 definitely do want.
    Liafcipe9000
    Critically Preposterous
    Bastards Bay
    #11 - 2014-05-09 11:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liafcipe9000
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Cloaking prevention within capture range

    Yes, this is a good idea.

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to keep the LP stealing viable while doing some changes to pretend we're doing something meaningful.

    FTFY.

    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    These are obviously not the only changes we could make to improve FW and they are not the only changes we want to make as we move forward, but we still believe that this package of complex improvements will benefit FW significantly.
    We look forward to hearing your feedback!

    I'm looking forward to see the rest of the FW changes, and hopefully one of them will be reduction of LP from idle orbiting and a substantial increase of LP gained by killing pilots of opposing militias and also pirates.

    I'm also looking forward to a solution for popular plexing fits such as this.
    Omnathious Deninard
    Ministry of Silly Walks.
    Blood Raider Associates
    #12 - 2014-05-09 11:38:56 UTC
    What about adding a warp disruption effect 2x the distance of capture for the duration of the capture?

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

    Yun Kuai
    Moira.
    Villore Accords
    #13 - 2014-05-09 11:40:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Cloaking prevention within capture range
    To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

    We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.



    Well let's see how to begin...
    First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
    Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

    Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

    Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

    /me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again

    --------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

    Zappity
    Pandemic Horde Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #14 - 2014-05-09 11:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
    This stops one of the few somewhat reliable ways to catch farmers: cloaky Astero or covops. Can you please comment on why this isn't a problem? I think stabs are a much bigger problem than cloaks in FW. A cloaky farmer must at least remain vigilant enough that he cloaks before being targeted.

    Would changing it such that a ship with fitted cloak did not count down the timer be a better solution?

    Edit: yes, see above. It seems that valid fits are being tossed out along with farmers. I don't understand the logic of hard-stopping cloaks from working being fine but a hard-stop to stabs not being fine.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

    Zarnak Wulf
    Amarrian Vengeance
    Team Amarrica
    #15 - 2014-05-09 11:43:07 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    What about adding a warp disruption effect 2x the distance of capture for the duration of the capture?


    I too want to introduce quasi-bubbles to low sec. And risk my implants to continue FW. Just no....
    Benny Ohu
    Chaotic Tranquility
    Snuffed Out
    #16 - 2014-05-09 11:46:06 UTC
    the most effective way to play the game will remain 'boring away the other player'

    this makes a bad game.
    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #17 - 2014-05-09 11:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
    I would like to see Faction Warfare LP payouts function somewhat like it does in Incursions - you don't get the LP for the plexes you have captured until after the system you captured them in has been flipped. This has two significant benefits:

    1. Farmers don't bash iHubs therefore they could no longer get quick ISK by farming FW.
    2. It would encourage focussed campaigns in FW space so that people actually get payouts for their work.

  • Focussed campaigns lead to more players in space and active, which leads to more PvP.

  • Obviously, that would not be applicable to defensive plexing. I think that's a good thing because it might encourage more people to D-plex.

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Kale Freeman
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #18 - 2014-05-09 11:48:24 UTC
    A much better solution would have been to make cloaking up an unattractive option for the farmer. Better than simply removing the option, and also removing the cloaking option for everyone else as well.

    In range of button, counting down timer.
    Move outside range, countdown stops.
    Cloak up or leave grid, countdown resets.
    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #19 - 2014-05-09 11:49:32 UTC
    Cloaks are not the problem. They can be used to evade a fight or to enable one.

    Warp stabs are the problem. They are good for nothing but avoiding fights.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Liafcipe9000
    Critically Preposterous
    Bastards Bay
    #20 - 2014-05-09 11:49:41 UTC
    Benny Ohu wrote:
    the most effective way to play the game will remain 'boring away the other player'

    this makes a bad game.

    I second that
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