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[Summer 2014] Calling for feedback on Assembly Line Settings

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Author
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-04-29 13:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hello people,


As you know it by now, we are focusing on industry for summer and bringing significant mechanic and UI changes to this feature as a whole.

There is one specific point we wish to receive your feedback on, which is assembly line settings.

Those settings (which are illustrated here) serve to control cost and access to POS / outpost industry lines.

We are thinking of streamlining this a bit by removing character and corporation security settings, which don't seem used that much in the first place.

We are also not certain of the usefulness of the "good standing discount %" and "bad standing surcharge %" entries since player groups usually do not want to allow access to such lines to their enemies in the first place. But we could be missing something.

Do you have any use for character and corporation security options? How useful is the good / bad standing surcharge options to you / your corporation / your alliance? Anything else you would like to change, add or remove on these settings?


Thanks for your time - and see you at Fanfest for those attending.
Chandoraa
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#2 - 2014-04-29 13:26:45 UTC
first
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2014-04-29 13:39:57 UTC
there is nobody in nullsec ever who has cared about restricting their stations based on security status: those should go away

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Kagehisa Shintaro
Back Door Burglars
#4 - 2014-04-29 13:42:21 UTC
I could be way off the bat here but there isn't a need for a Security setting for using lines. But with the changes coming to Manufacturing I can see some Corporations downsizing their POS outlay somewhat. So the ability to perhaps (through Titles/Roles) set it so that people within a certain group in your Corp can operate the lines with priority over people not in that group might be useful.

For example, if we as a corp are building Dreadnoughts, and we use (currently 4) Component Assembly Arrays in our POS to build the parts, I would want those Corp members who are actively involved in building Corporate Dreads to have first use or reduced cost use of the lines, over someone in the Corp who is building a Dread to sell for personal profit.

I don't think that directly relates to security or standing settings atm, so apologies if it's way off the mark. But I think some way of managing Assembly Lines (or Labratory Slots) on Starbases is needed.

Any company can ship. We space ship. - CCP Guard

Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger
Northern Coalition.
#5 - 2014-04-29 13:45:15 UTC
providence probably wants to talk to you about this.
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-04-29 13:45:54 UTC
Kagehisa Shintaro wrote:
I could be way off the bat here but there isn't a need for a Security setting for using lines. But with the changes coming to Manufacturing I can see some Corporations downsizing their POS outlay somewhat. So the ability to perhaps (through Titles/Roles) set it so that people within a certain group in your Corp can operate the lines with priority over people not in that group might be useful.

For example, if we as a corp are building Dreadnoughts, and we use (currently 4) Component Assembly Arrays in our POS to build the parts, I would want those Corp members who are actively involved in building Corporate Dreads to have first use or reduced cost use of the lines, over someone in the Corp who is building a Dread to sell for personal profit.

I don't think that directly relates to security or standing settings atm, so apologies if it's way off the mark. But I think some way of managing Assembly Lines (or Labratory Slots) on Starbases is needed.


This, but also for stations and then applied to diffrent corperations instead of raw standings. Coz everyon ehas the same standign in an alliance and you cant differentiate between.

My corp owns a station and i want all our alt corps to have no tax on that, but **** the rest of the alliance basicly :D
Nicholas Aideronne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-04-29 13:58:42 UTC
Reddit user Nuadi said the following;

"Can't post on the forums, so hopefully this gets back to them somehow.
If they would make the lines open to the public, I could see a tower setup for public use where the good/bad standings are part of the service. However, I'd make the standings Good/Excellent. I don't think a bad standing surcharge is very useful since you'll simply block them from use anyway using the min standing setting.
I'd gut the security settings since that's not in control of the tower owner (e.g. I can't control that you've ganked people). Leave access control to standings settings."

Thought I'd help him in getting his message to the forums.

And my thoughts on it are that this looks pretty awesome. As leadership of a rather large corporation that accomadates newbies I think this will really help our newbies be able to take full advantage of our "public" production POSes.

I'd also hope that along with this POS production update we can get something of the like for invention, and copying, or producing from a public BPO. Something that would keep the BPOs and BPCs only in the hands of those with roles to access them but usable for production, copying, invention, material research, or time efficiency. We've tried this in the past but we could find no combination of measures currently in-game that'd allow this without the possibility of the jobs being shut down by other users or blueprints being stolen.
Grarr Dexx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-04-29 14:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Grarr Dexx
I don't agree that standard charges like assembly line / research fees can be discounted by station holding corporations. Where does the money come from to pay for the discount? The same applies to station repair fees, it makes no sense that players can repair for free in captured outposts. Who pays for the replacement parts and the workload?

Discounts on assembly lines in general are only going to serve the already massive advantage 0.0 is going to have over building in high or low-sec, which are already going to be hampered by a 10% DECREASE in refining output compared to 0.0. Especially in the case of low-sec, this makes no sense since there is in many cases equal or more risk to living here than in large swaths of 0.0. Where is the risk vs reward? It seems you've managed to turn it into sec vs reward, and it's skewed beyond belief.
Kagehisa Shintaro
Back Door Burglars
#9 - 2014-04-29 14:37:50 UTC
Just to clarify, when I mentioned a reduced cost for certain members in my Corp, it was more aimed at allowing me to set a Tax on using the Corporate Starbase and then allowing that Tax be set based on Titles/Roles.

Any company can ship. We space ship. - CCP Guard

Drake Ichosira
Unlimited Expanse
#10 - 2014-04-29 14:45:30 UTC
I think that the roles should be redone as well as the interface. I would like to see it whereyou can see the jobs being run and directors and slot managers can cancel jobs being done in pos structures but you dont need permissions to use them
Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-04-29 15:44:28 UTC
While those current options aren't widely used now, I'm not sure that removing them is the best option. Doing so severely hampers the (however remote) possibility of free-trade zones in the future. If I'm not completely mistaken, it appears to me that CCP is trying to encourage more small entities to move into null-sec. Allowing people to set up small fiefdoms and set standings to their bloc overlords to encourage some of the bloc industrials to build in their stations by setting up favorable tax rates. It could also be used by the same blocs to set up their own hubs by telling people that they can build wherever they like, but if they do it in these specific systems they won't pay any tax to do so. Just because the systems currently in place in the game don't support a lot of nullsec manufacturing and research doesn't mean that they won't in the future and it seems to me like an overabundance of industrials in null sec is a problem that CCP WANTS to have in the future.

I guess the real questions is what is the specific purpose that you want to achieve by taking away those options? Do you feel that the interface is too cluttered? Do you feel that those options are intrinsically "bad"? Is it just streamlining the window by removing unused options?
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#12 - 2014-04-29 15:49:26 UTC
Ideally:

Security can be disregarded. It factors into bugger all within a corporation/alliance setting.

Allowing use to be public would be great - except that the way you've set things up means no office to starbase usage, diminishing 99% of potential there. No one is going to use my starbase for their research and manufacture when they cannot even reach it.

Otherwise, the best system [for non alliance/corp] really would be to go similar to how customs offices are set up, with variable rates for all those standings. As much of the industry changes are working on % of product, the lines can be taxed at % as well.

Finally, being able to set % prices by role within corp and by corp within alliance would be grand.

penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
#13 - 2014-04-29 15:56:32 UTC  |  Edited by: penifSMASH
Station settings for assembly lines are so archaic, rigid, useless, and undocumented that dealing it with has been a complete and utter headache. I say this is as one of the people runs the executor corp in Brothers of Tangra, which owns 111 outposts that service hundreds and hundreds of corps both in and out of the alliance. Thanks in advance for addressing this issue.

Instead of suggesting what modifications we'd like to see made to that particular existing UI, I will list what overall changes I would like to be made in the hopes that it will help guide you.

- Security status restrictions and bad standing discharge is useless for the vast majority of null but you should wait to hear feedback from Providence station holders as some of them RP as anti-pirates. Also some of their stations have allowed bad standing characters to dock and use services (so it's still feasible albeit unlikely they'd want to use assembly lines)
- I would like to have the ability to block out particular corps (or conversely only allow certain corps) within the alliance from using assembly lines
- I would like to have the ability to set different tax rates for different corps (instead of the same blanket cost for all corps within an alliance)
- same as the previous two points except with different alliances
- When setting job costs for different lines, I'd like to be able to set the same costs for multiple lines at once instead of having to click each one individually, although I guess this will be irrelevant after the industry changes
- I'd like to allow/restrict use of Reprocessing services for different corps within the alliance, or at the very least modify reprocessing tax based on the corp that uses it

Maybe there is a way to do all of this but there is no documentation and we never get help from petitions so maybe release some kind of guide or explanation for setting up stations overall, although I guess this specific request goes beyond the scope of this thread.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2014-04-29 15:58:13 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:

- When setting job costs for different lines, I'd like to be able to set the same costs for multiple lines at once instead of having to click each one individually, although I guess this will be irrelevant after the industry changes

you can do this right now, shift-clicking lets you select all of them

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
#15 - 2014-04-29 15:59:55 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
penifSMASH wrote:

- When setting job costs for different lines, I'd like to be able to set the same costs for multiple lines at once instead of having to click each one individually, although I guess this will be irrelevant after the industry changes

you can do this right now, shift-clicking lets you select all of them


mother of God, why didn't anyone tell me this before
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#16 - 2014-04-29 16:07:31 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
penifSMASH wrote:

- When setting job costs for different lines, I'd like to be able to set the same costs for multiple lines at once instead of having to click each one individually, although I guess this will be irrelevant after the industry changes

you can do this right now, shift-clicking lets you select all of them


mother of God, why didn't anyone tell me this before


and Ctrl+click lets you select things as you click on them.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#17 - 2014-04-29 16:23:59 UTC
I think "standings" should effect NPC stations too. Something like + or - 5% on the install cost as your standings (corp and faction, added together) swing from extreme to extreme.

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Shiganaru
Ignis Aeternus Imperium
#18 - 2014-04-29 17:14:17 UTC
This is probably a little outside scope. . . .

An example of how I would like to see things work, although some things may change with upcoming industry changes.

We have 4 labs and 2 assembly arrays anchored on a corporate POS.

Two of those labs and the assembly arrays are dedicated to a specific project and only members in the "R&D" division (by title) of the corporation may install / deliver the jobs in these facilities

The other two labs are general purpose and any member may install jobs into them, but only the installer or a director can deliver / cancel.

In the current system, POS facilities are pretty much off-limits for all but the industrial officers, who can be trusted not to steal or cancel another member's job. If someone were to steal/cancel the job, there isn't even a record of who did it. Thus being able to limit who can use facilities, and what they can use those facilities for, would be fantastic.

Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#19 - 2014-04-29 17:21:48 UTC
The only line settings that I currently use are allow corp and alliance members. Not that I'm opposed to the possibility of renting my pos slots out the the public, If I can charge enough to cover the fuel costs and maybe a little profit, I'll anchor and maintain another POS, no problem.

With the rise job costs, this might actually be feasible. However seeing as the blueprints now need to be inside the pos modules in order to be researched, I'm not sure how you would do that.

Unless you want to anchor a module outside the pos that people could put their blue prints in and research from there using any of the labs inside the pos.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#20 - 2014-04-29 17:22:40 UTC
There are two areas that have to be looked at separately because they work differently.

POSes:

As a corp CEO, I'd like to point out that if you are not a member of the owning corporation with access to at least one hanger division, one wallet division, and certain roles, you can't use the tower arrays at all. With the removal of remote research and the changes to job install costs and taxation, that entire menu can simply be removed as it serves no purpose what-so-ever.

Now, I'm totally in support of having a way to enable access for randoms based on standings and such, as well as a way to set corp taxes on the arrays. But until out-of-corp users can actually put stuff into the array and take out a finished item, that will never happen.

As far as setting cost/taxes, why not have the array taxes directly coupled to the corp tax rate? If having the ability to set arbitrary tax rates on individual arrays is desired, then add that as a column in the interface. Right-click to change it in a small dialog box.

tl;dr: Add a personal hanger division to all POS arrays. Then we can talk about more POS array security and standings changes.


Stations:

As far as stations, now we some wiggle room. A player sitting in station has unlimited storage and a personal hanger from and to which they can move stuff. Now there that interface makes sense. Providence being freeported, it is vital to be able to set all of those settings.

With the removal of individual lines, station (and POS) managers will no longer have to set everything on every line. \o/ This is a huge quality of life improvement for managers. Thank you.

Now the question is more along the lines of "Who do I want to have access to service x, and not to service y?" How much differentiation do we need on a service by service basis. Do we want to be able to manage access to each and every possible service, like ME research, TE research, copying, Invention, manufacturing... et al? Do we want to have the ability to set a blanket policy for everything all at once?

I think the answer is yes to both.

So I say eliminate this current menu. Move the functionality to the individual services, and have an "Apply Blanket Policy" option for managers. If it takes a revamp of the station manager's menu, then so be it. But changes to industry necessitate changes to industrial interfaces. And the Station Manager's interface is a part of that.

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