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Does Eve need new players?

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Author
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#41 - 2014-02-18 21:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
It really is an amazing game, but that doesn't mean there aren't some issues. But good lord, don't you dare suggest making it harder for high level people to get their easy targets. They wouldn't have anything else to do.


The beauty of the game is that every single player has choices and those choices have consequences.

It really isn't true that game mechanics should introduce barriers to player interaction, both good interaction and bad.

It's not for the game to do that. It's up to the players to do that.

I'll come back to my earlier question about your specific example, the leadership of this training corp consists of highly experienced and knowledgable players right?

If so, why aren't they taking a lead to teach their new members how to survive wardecs and make things tougher for the wardeccer?

If not, then the root cause of the problem isn't the wardec. It's the gap in knowledge and experience of the leadership of the corp. They should be protecting and educating the new players who have placed trust in them to teach them. If they aren't able to, then they are in the wrong positions.
Jared Lennox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-18 21:53:35 UTC
NFain wrote:
A valid point arises, what is simply missing is rewards for being the good guy. EVE works as risk vs reward, and what we're failing to attract is the good guy player persona. The bad guy is always glorified, through the news and etc, whats the next big heist? But nobody ever sees the good deeds, most players DO NOT like to play in that kind of environment, they want to know that what they're doing is going to be rewarded as significantly as the other.

Also to add, war dec shields coming winter 2014 :D, im calling it.


Do you need a round of applause for the 93248210472946204623942734293084th blockade mission you turned in or for each m3 of ore you have mined. You can't expect to make an impact by simply doing nothing.

http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2014-02-18 21:53:44 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Again, it's obvious this all boils down to higher level players that don't want to risk having to face their peers.

It's obvious that you've long since round out of anything resembling an actual argument since you have to rely so heavily on straw men and ad hominems.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#44 - 2014-02-18 21:55:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So? If they don't like the game, they don't like the game. So what?


Well that was exactly Mr. Jones' point, with which you now seem to agree, that but for these mechanics more people would play. Therefore, if they were changed EvE, overall might be more successful. It seems like that is the third thing we have agreed on.
Jared Lennox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-02-18 21:57:01 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
some nonsense.


It's funny to see how you fail to negotiate without exaggeration. Either you are a troll or I'm typing in Chinese. In both cases, it's not my problem dude. Don't hate the player, hate the game and deal with itCool

http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#46 - 2014-02-18 21:58:12 UTC
OP please link the Eve is dying news article you mentioned.

Consider when you and your friends quit to leave your assets to the New Order. We like helping people.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#47 - 2014-02-18 21:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shizuken wrote:
Well that was exactly Mr. Jones' point, with which you now seem to agree, that but for these mechanics more people would play. Therefore, if they were changed EvE, overall might be more successful.
If they were changed, EVE would be yet another pointless themepark clone that would die an ignominious death in 10 months. That hardly counts as more successful.

There's a reason why it has survived longer than most; catering to people who don't like the game isn't it. All the problems the OP presents are of his making by lying to and failing to teach and lead those new players.
Oliver Wendel Jones
Falcon Pilots
Art of War Alliance
#48 - 2014-02-18 22:00:01 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So? If they don't like the game, they don't like the game. So what?


Well that was exactly Mr. Jones' point, with which you now seem to agree, that but for these mechanics more people would play. Therefore, if they were changed EvE, overall might be more successful. It seems like that is the third thing we have agreed on.


Yeah, but new people need time to develop to stay interested in a game. These people need their easy targets in order to stay interested in the game. That's why there can't be any sort of changes that make it harder to war dec players who weren't bother anyone, make gate camps harder to pull off, etc.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#49 - 2014-02-18 22:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Ok, then how about this: Get rid of ALL pve beyond the tutorials. As soon as you learn that you join a corp and start PvP from then on. No more killing rats. No more wormholes. Nope, not needed. Just join a big corp and go after other people. It's not like there is any reason to play the game except the way you do, right?

Again, it's obvious this all boils down to higher level players that don't want to risk having to face their peers.

Oh god.. where to start. Just in case this isn't a troll, sensible answer.

Everything in Eve is PvP, including the PvE. Mining provides resources, which are refined and used to produce ships and modules. Bounties provide isk, wrecks provide modules and salvage, all are used to trade on the market. Trading on the market is PvP, 99.9% of the market is player driven, ergo gathering resources and wealth used for trading is also a form of PvP.

TL;DR If you're competing with another player, be it for resources, trading, production slots, or pretty much anything else in Eve, it's PvP.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2014-02-18 22:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Yeah, but new people need time to develop to stay interested in a game.
No, they really don't. They just need proper guidance. There's a reason why many of of the most successful groups in EVE have proper newbie programs as a cornerstone of their philosophy and why it entails getting them out of highsec pretty much the second they've gone through the tutorials, if not sooner.

Hiding them from the actual game and lying to them about how it works doesn't qualify. Not taking advantage of the opportunity to teach them how to play and telling them not to play doesn't qualify. Filling their heads with nonsense such as “wait until you have X” doesn't qualify.

At best, those things qualify as actual griefing, and of a far more insidious and damaging sort than the kind of fake griefing you're complaining about.

Quote:
make it harder to war dec players who weren't bother anyone, make gate camps harder to pull off
…and there it is. Nothing that actually helps new players — just stuff that lets older players not have to learn the things they should have learned ages ago. Things like the fact that “not bothering anyone” is completely impossible due to how the game and its economy are designed.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#51 - 2014-02-18 22:12:21 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Shizuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So? If they don't like the game, they don't like the game. So what?


Well that was exactly Mr. Jones' point, with which you now seem to agree, that but for these mechanics more people would play. Therefore, if they were changed EvE, overall might be more successful. It seems like that is the third thing we have agreed on.


Yeah, but new people need time to develop to stay interested in a game. These people need their easy targets in order to stay interested in the game. That's why there can't be any sort of changes that make it harder to war dec players who weren't bother anyone, make gate camps harder to pull off, etc.


New players do not need to be bubble wrapped. The sooner they are shown the realities of the game, and given the chance to accept it, the sooner they can become real players.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-02-18 22:44:08 UTC
You all need to get into ewar ships. Jam their T3s and watch the tears flow.

In fact message me in game if you are under wardec still, I will contract you some ewar hulls with the proviso you send me any local/evemail tears.
Oliver Wendel Jones
Falcon Pilots
Art of War Alliance
#53 - 2014-02-18 22:50:38 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
You all need to get into ewar ships. Jam their T3s and watch the tears flow.

In fact message me in game if you are under wardec still, I will contract you some ewar hulls with the proviso you send me any local/evemail tears.



LoL, I know, that was my suggestion, but they don't have that available.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#54 - 2014-02-18 22:59:36 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
You all need to get into ewar ships. Jam their T3s and watch the tears flow.

In fact message me in game if you are under wardec still, I will contract you some ewar hulls with the proviso you send me any local/evemail tears.



LoL, I know, that was my suggestion, but they don't have that available.


A caveat, btw. If they are flying a Tengu and they're smart, it is possible that they have autofire missiles.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tran Tuyen
Amadio Family Enterprises
#55 - 2014-02-18 23:00:51 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
So what I see is that unless you are already running tech 3 ships or have plenty of corp mates online all the time, you shouldn't really play the game. You can't join a small corp who wants to play casually for an hour or so a couple times a week together and enjoy the group dynamic without being harassed by groups who really can't risk anything more than the "easy kill". No, we shouldn't make any slight changes that would encourage players of a certain level to leave lower level players alone, so perhaps those players develop. Heh, I can see the chunky kid behind the keyboard who got pushed around on the playground thinking he get's his revenge on Eve. And from all I read on these forums, it really is about a fear that the higher level players will lose their easy targets. Can't have that. It's all about risk, right? Just as long as it's the other guy's risk, not yours.
My other main is in a corp that does a little bit of everything--mining, industry, missions, daytrips to low/null/wormholes, and PVP roams--and I don't think anyone there has more than 20m skillpoints; most pilots are under 10. Everyone has a day job, no one is expected to play more than they can or want to. And guess what: they have more fun than anyone has a right to playing this terrible Spreadsheets in Space game, largely because of two things: 1) they teach new players how to fly smart and not risk more than they're willing to lose, and 2) when they got their first wardec, the corp founders decided they would never ship-spin no matter what. When wardecs hit--and at one point they were hitting twice a month--they reship to Thoraxes and Arbitrators and Atrons and go looking for war targets. Sometimes they welp, occasionally they get kills, but they're always playing the game.

Sorry, but your position is nonsense. There's plenty of room for new players in this game and they don't need to be shielded from PVP. No, they can't solo in a mission-fit battlecruiser during a wardec, but guess what? Neither can anyone else. If you want to join a player corp you have to be willing to step into a true multiplayer environment, where other players can and will interact with you whether you want them to or not. This is not a design flaw in the game; it's a key selling point, and breaking that in the interest of building some kind of youngling playpen is a terrible idea. If you want to enjoy the advantages of being in a player-corp, you have to be prepared to roll with it when other players come to cut in on your game--and if you're leading a player-corp, you need to make sure your newbros understand how to do this, or you need to replace yourself with someone more capable.

Incidentally, if you do just want to play with a small group of friends without the threat of wardecs, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing it while still in NPC corps. You can set up a private chat channel, you can fleet up together, you can even get a TS server (or just use EVE voice). You won't get all the benefits of a corp and NPC corp taxes are painful (though I've noticed that hasn't stopped an awful lot of "new player friendly" highsec corps from charging 10% taxes too), but you can make isk and learn the game in a relatively safe environment if that's what you want.
Dan Rae
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-02-18 23:04:46 UTC
Resounding yes from me. The newcomer to EVE has to be ready for it before they start, but they sure are needed.
Herzyr
Alphas to Omegas
#57 - 2014-02-18 23:06:30 UTC
Every game needs new players. EvE is no exception, the thing is, EvE is not your typical MMORPG.
If 'those' new players can't even get past the tutorial or the first hours, I'm not so sure that's the kind of players EvE needs, It's like a rite of passage, you pass it, then you enjoy the benefits, If you don't well, better luck next time or try again.

As I see it, its a conondrum, you need new players to keep the game alive but again, you need to be thick skinned to play this, If you fall down once and can't even shrug it off at least once, This game is not for you and you would be a fool to keep playing unless you like to torture yourself.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#58 - 2014-02-18 23:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Little Dragon Khamez
Herzyr wrote:
Every game needs new players. EvE is no exception, the thing is, EvE is not your typical MMORPG.
If 'those' new players can't even get past the tutorial or the first hours, I'm not so sure that's the kind of players EvE needs, It's like a rite of passage, you pass it, then you enjoy the benefits, If you don't well, better luck next time or try again.

As I see it, its a conondrum, you need new players to keep the game alive but again, you need to be thick skinned to play this, If you fall down once and can't even shrug it off at least once, This game is not for you and you would be a fool to keep playing unless you like to torture yourself.


That's why I oppose dumbing down.

We need quality control. New players that can't adapt or learn how to thrive here don't belong here. It's not an elite mmo for nothing.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-02-18 23:30:16 UTC
Simple suggestion. If you are under attack in high-sec, move to low-sec or into maybe even into WH space. If you are going to be losing ships anyway, you might as well do it where it's profitable. There's plenty of quiet low-sec systems.

It would be a good bit of new player training.
Natassia Krasnoo
R3D SHIFT
#60 - 2014-02-18 23:31:43 UTC
It's just the circle of the game. A bunch of new guys join up, get ganked a few times and some quit. Others stick around and become the new gankers and other player types. These gankers/players grow up to be bitter vets that eventually give up eve for long periods of time but rarely forever, unless the reaper finds them. They then come back to the game and become null bears living out their retirement years earning fat wads of isk farming plexes and PI in null space all the while whining about how LVL 4 missions are too lucrative compared to null income, as they pick their teeth with marauders and burn T3's for warmth. They then buy bling toys that some of the new players mine the ore for and the cycle starts anew. The end.

Run along now and brush your teeth kiddies. It's time for daddy to play eve some more.