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Does Eve need new players?

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#21 - 2014-02-18 20:30:10 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
No, I was the small, skinny kid who was likely to get pushed around on the playground, so I recognize the type. Though I grew up, joined the military, then became a cop and spent my time trying to stop those jackholes who pray on the weak. I guess that is why I don't like the type I see to often here. The idea of a reward system for being the good guy does appeal to me.

So essentially you went from being weak to shooting the weak then putting the weak in cages? Kind of the bullied becoming the bully, no?
See, I can make baseless assumptions about a person too. Nobody will take you seriously when you drag real life into a videogame.

Guess what, everyone playing EVE started as a new player, when I started things were balanced much more in favour of veteran players, you had to train learning skills for weeks before learning to fly T2 hulls and to fly T2 fitted T2 cruisers you first had to learn the skills to fly T2 small ships and skills for T2 small guns before training for mediums, training for a well fitted HAC took months, now it's a third of that. Training for a capital took the better part of a year, now it's 2/3 as long. Guess what, when I started I died, loads, I didn't quit and eventually I got good at what I did.
Wardecs now are heavily balanced in favour of the 'victim', crimewatch 2.0 makes mission ninkaing harder, hisec PvP has been consistently nerfed.
If anything needs fixed to make things better for noobs it's T1 ship insurance, that would make losing ships less harsh. EVE rewards patience and persistence, if your buddies cant stick sucking at the start they should quit and go play wow.
Elemental Tide
#22 - 2014-02-18 20:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Studio Ghibli
OP,

Judging by your write-up about the vet player harassing the newer players, it sounds like EVE is working exactly the way it was designed to operate. I see no problem. :)

At this point, I suppose they have the three Fs to choose from.

Fight, flee, forget-about-it.

That's EVE.

If they can't fight him off, well, that's how EVE works. They need to, at that point, either accept it for what it is and live with it (forget-about-it) or find somewhere else to call home.

Providence is pretty accepting of new players.
Lost Obsession
#23 - 2014-02-18 20:32:07 UTC
To start with, I am a new player and I have to consider myself a casual player because I'm only home at weekends, I can't even train skills constantly, once the queue is completed it stays empty untilI get home again Friday evening. Frankly, I think your view is blinkered to say the least.
To date, I've run the tutorials, run through the SOE arc, and spent all the ISK I picked up on things I didn't really need and/or soon lost. This weekend just gone I enlisted in faction warfare, got jumped whilst solo plexing (I didn't even notice I was fighting a blob, not a single enemy as I thought!) And then, as soon as I got into a new ship, I got attacked by pirates! (seriously guys, I did you all a favour by not singing!)
Am I disillusioned by all this? Hell no! I'll be back for more this weekend, getting blown up, but hopefully learning things along the way, and trying to find a good way to earn ISK to replace all those lost ships.
This game is HUGE, and as a player said to me last weekend (sorry, I forgot your name if you're reading this) "it all takes time, you can't learn EvE in a single session" (not a direct quote, but that was the gist of it)
Ok, so playing like the guy you've mentioned in your post is low, but then, this is a sandbox game, people are allowed to do anything they like within the rules, and because of that, the playerbase has created a dark, violent world. If your corp isn't making sure that the new players know that, that the minute you undock you become a target for someone then you aren't doing your job.
If you can stand some advice from someone who only has about 6 days of time in the game, tell your corp members to get back into their newbie NPC corp, run the tutorials, run through SOE, read as much as they can and listen to players who (i) know what they're talking aboutand (ii)have seen more of the universe than just CONCORD patrolled systems.If people come to eve expecting a nice fuzzy experience, they need to reevaluate that opinion before the trial period is over. Not one thing I saw, from the website, to the forums, to reviews, or even the launcher, made me expect anything but a dystopian, dog eat dog universe.
#24 - 2014-02-18 20:32:55 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
So what I see is that unless you are already running tech 3 ships or have plenty of corp mates online all the time, you shouldn't really play the game.
You need to book a time with your local optometrist.

Quote:
No, we shouldn't make any slight changes that would encourage players of a certain level to leave lower level players alone, so perhaps those players develop.
What you're asking for already exists. What you're suggesting, on the other hand, is downright harmful to new players.
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-02-18 20:38:56 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Some knowledgeable person should give OP some useful advice on how to beat the wardec problem. That's why the corp isn't enjoying the game-- they don't know how to counter the wardecs.


The problem is, you make suggestions on how to ease it up on the new people and the gangs who can't get by without their easy targets start flaming.

Maybe something along the lines of comparing average skill points of the war deccing corp to the average skill points of the target corp and basing the cost of the dec on that? Right now it's a cheap thing to war dec a corp in high sec and pick off their players running level 3's in their tech 1 ships.


Would you stop talking about SP? Contrary to popular belief SP is not the limiting factor in combat in eve. Numbers are. Admittedly wardeccing a noob corp and playing station games in a t3 against them is kinda a **** move, but there's no reason that you can't organize a logoff trap and catch the guy. Even a single kill puts you positive in isk efficiency if you've been flying frigates. I don't know why you would be running missions while war targets are online. Perhaps you should fix that. You could try running missions or exploration sites in low or null sec, and see if he follows. Then again, if you haven't figure out how to avoid a single wartarget in high sec, I'm not sure how well that will go for you. Look up how to use d-scan and local chat as intel tools.

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Paradigm.
#26 - 2014-02-18 20:57:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Oliver Wendel Jones
SP being a good indicator, especially of ship fits, which is where the real thing comes down. But aside from that, and numbers not being an answer for some people who aren't online a lot or don't have a huge corp, SP gives a basis of comparison.

Like I said, I'm not for ending PvP in high sec, being on my first war kill with some friends against a T3 griefer was about the most fun I've had with my pants on, but it's funny how many people are so petrified of having their options to go after lower level or casual players limited, rater than have to face their peers. Says a lot.
#27 - 2014-02-18 21:02:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Staying docked up is a sure way to make them frustrated when they could instead go out and blast stuff and have fun. Of course, if they keep being lied to about how they must wait until they have more SP or until they can fly some specific ship or that they must not play the game or about how old players have massive advantages, then of course they will quit… for all the wrong reasons. So don't be a griefer — stop lying to the new players and stop teaching them to be victims.


I am sure that the constant aggravation from griefers has nothing to do with it right? After all, who doesn't like paying $15 a month just to be aggravated?

Gimme a break dude. The SP disparity issue is easily dispelled. The biggest issue is that the game itself appears tilted in favor of people that like to aggravate others for the joy of collecting tears. At the same time the message from CCP to those noobs that just want to be left alone is frankly a gigantic "eff-you."

If risk should match reward, then why are griefers allowed to harrass noobs while remaining de facto unharmed. Low/null is the proper place for that boorish behavior. High security space should be just that, HIGH security.
#28 - 2014-02-18 21:04:19 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
SP being a good indicator, especially of ship fits, which is where the real thing comes down.
The only thing SP is a good indicator of is time subscribed. That is all. What that means in terms of ability, capability, competence is all up in the air.

Quote:
SP gives a basis of comparison.
Not of anything that matters.

Quote:
it's funny how many people are so petrified of having their options to go after lower level or casual players limited, rater than have to face their peers. Says a lot.

No, what's funny is how you keep ignoring the points people make and instead invent these inane fantasies about their motivations and arguments. That says a lot; none of it good.
#29 - 2014-02-18 21:10:56 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
I am sure that the constant aggravation from griefers has nothing to do with it right?
Compared to being told they shouldn't play the game? Compared to being lied to about how the game works? Probably not nothing, but relatively little on the scale of things.

Also, what makes you say that they're aggravated? What makes you say that it is constant? Is it really the griefers that are aggravating them or is it their clueless corp leaders who teach them that they're supposed to be aggravated, and who aggravate them by restricting their activities to the few useless things the CEO thinks are “the right thing” to do?

Quote:
If risk should match reward, then why are griefers allowed to harrass noobs while remaining de facto unharmed. Low/null is the proper place for that boorish behavior
…as is highsec, since it's just as much a combat zone as the rest of the game. The only difference is that in high, aggression comes at a cost. That is what the “high” in highsec means: that you can gamble on people's miserliness to not attack you on sight. Compare this to lowsec, where the odds are much lower for that gamble to pay off, and nullsec where the odds are… nil.

Griefers are not allowed to harass noobs because griefing and harassment is against the EULA. People are, however, free to use the mechanics at hand to kill other players. The risks and rewards for this are pretty much up to the players to decide: if you give up and just lie down waiting to die, the risk for the attacker will obviously be low. If you choose not to do that, it will be much higher.
#30 - 2014-02-18 21:17:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
SP being a good indicator, especially of ship fits, which is where the real thing comes down. But aside from that, and numbers not being an answer for some people who aren't online a lot or don't have a huge corp, SP gives a basis of comparison.
Nope, SP is not a good indicator at all. SP gives you 2 things, choice and expensive clones. There is a SP cap for each skill, and a skill cap for each ship class. Lvl 5 racial frigate is lvl 5 racial frigate regardless of how many SP you have.

For any given ship that a higher SP character is flying only a very small percentage of those SP relate in any way to the performance of that ship. Take frigates for example, a low skilled player in a frigate is more than capable of taking a higher skilled player in the same ship, especially if the higher skilled player has all his SP in something like industry, and thus has low frigate skills.

Quote:
Like I said, I'm not for ending PvP in high sec, being on my first war kill with some friends against a T3 griefer was about the most fun I've had with my pants on, but it's funny how many people are so petrified of having their options to go after lower level or casual players limited, rater than have to face their peers. Says a lot.

Why should the options for going after lower level of casual players be limited?

There's already an option in place to permanently avoid wardecs, it's called an NPC corp. You're not entirely safe there either though, suicide ganking is sometimes used to inflict surprise PvP on NPC corp members, usually because they had something shiny in cargo or fitted, or were spotted by James and his merry band of rascals mining without a permit, in untanked Mackinaws.

Ship explosions are part of Eve, if you can't handle losing stuff occasionally Eve is not for you.

CCP Solomon wrote:
the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP).
Please note there are no exceptions to the risk of having your day ruined, this applies to everybody, be they casual, newb or bitter vet.

TL;DR Eve is a PvP game, you can avoid many of the ship explosions, but pretty much everything else in Eve is PvP in one form or another, including the metagame.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-02-18 21:17:11 UTC
This again...

SP =/= Player Experience.

Deal with it (hint: there's hints in this very thread; ignore at your own peril). Bear
End of Life
#32 - 2014-02-18 21:20:16 UTC
Quick question: in your specific example you mention a training corp. This corp has a leadership that consists of highly skilled players with the knowledge and experience to teach right?

In which case, why isn't the leadership teaching the new players about wardec survival, taking a lead in ensuring the new players have the ability to play even when the highsec wardeccer is online and/or moved the whole Corp elsewhere for the period of the wardec?
#33 - 2014-02-18 21:26:07 UTC
If you're going to persist in calling people fat nerds because they play a videogame in a manner you disagree with, then you have completely validated their choice to attack you.

Lighten up on the attitude a little, it's a videogame for crying out loud.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

#34 - 2014-02-18 21:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Tippia wrote:
People are, however, free to use the mechanics at hand to kill other players. The risks and rewards for this are pretty much up to the players to decide: if you give up and just lie down waiting to die, the risk for the attacker will obviously be low. If you choose not to do that, it will be much higher.


These are the precise mechanics I was referring to. To a PvEer or "carebear" these are no less than CCP approved annoyance tools. It is exactly these types of things that annoy certain people and keep them from resubbing. Not everyone likes playing for weeks just to have the sum total of their free time destroyed before their very eyes. For those that enjoy PvP there is a place for that. But for those that don't, if you want them to actually play the game they need reasonable protection from that BS. Wardecs and light punishment for highsec ganking directly circumvent that.
Paradigm.
#35 - 2014-02-18 21:32:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If you're going to persist in calling people fat nerds because they play a videogame in a manner you disagree with, then you have completely validated their choice to attack you.

Lighten up on the attitude a little, it's a videogame for crying out loud.


Yeah, it's kind of my play on all the flamers (who started early and predictably), not people who make reasonable posts.
Paradigm.
#36 - 2014-02-18 21:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Oliver Wendel Jones
Shizuken, the common denominator is that the people who prey on "carebears" will do anything to avoid losing their easy targets. It really isn't about how Eve is designed for PvP, because they aren't satisfied with going after PvPers. Without their easy targets, the people who don't want to play the exact same way as them, with all of their advantages making the risk low for them, they wouldn't play the game if they had to face people on an equal level. I hate WoW and games like that, and these people do too, but for them its because they aren't forced into fighting higher challenges to make rewards. Here they can gank the easy targets.

It really is an amazing game, but that doesn't mean there aren't some issues. But good lord, don't you dare suggest making it harder for high level people to get their easy targets. They wouldn't have anything else to do.
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-02-18 21:44:47 UTC
Oliver Wendel Jones wrote:
Ok, so I will get ready for the flames...
But I've read some news articles about how CCP is not attracting the new players needed to keep the game going and is trying to raise revenues through gimmicks like the noble exchange. Personally, I don't care what my toon is wearing. I'm more interested in what is going on outside the station.

I've tried to get new guys involved in the game, and it always comes down to the same problem. There is a massive advantage for people who have been playing for a long time, and also for those who can devote a lot of time to the game. Casual players are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Not a big deal in itself, but the problem is that many players get their jollies by preying on the new players. And fuel their sense of keyboard based superiority by calling them carebears, telling them that Eve is brutal, get over it, etc.

Now if these players roam into lowsec where there is an expectation of being attacked, then sure, that's their fault. But when new players are being bombarded by suicide gankers and war decs in high sec, then they feel like they don't have a place to go where they can learn and build up to the point that they can join in the pvp stuff.

I have friends with a high sec corp. They like to do pve and they don't bother other players. Their corp is specifically listed as a training corp for new players. Someone who is logged into the game 20 hours a day war decced the training corp so he could attack them in high sec. Funny thing is, this person only comes out of station in the nice tech 3 ships he has to attack the players when they are alone. When approached by several of the corps ships, he stays right next to station and docks up as soon as he drops to hull. Won't come out if there are more than 3 or 4 of the corps members online. So while this person overwhelms this corps players when they are alone, the kills get the attention of other corps that act the same way, so a training corp ends up getting multiple war decs in high sec. So their only option is to stay docked up. So they end up paying for a game they can't play because a lot of other players can't get their jollies by "picking on someone their own size" essentially.

And so they are going to get frustrated and leave the game. And it's going to deter new players from ever getting into the game. Is the ease of attacking newer players in high sec worth the game not getting new players? Not every player who could be paying for the game and promoting the development is going to be able to devote the time needed to become a null sec pirate. But these players benefit the game in many ways. Can the game survive if the majority of players are able to play for free by selling plex? Someone without the time to farm isk is going to have to pay actual money for time, and that money is what keeps CCP developing. Is it going to be much fun when driving away new and potential players results in the game dying off?

Ok, let the flaming begin.


Ummmm and here I thought EvE was a PeeVeePee game instead of a risk-free themepark MMO like most of the others on the market already. Highsec's security is overrated. Also for SOME reason, (this one confuses me a lot) people expect a 100% protection when they are living in highsec. Sir you were never so wrong... EvE needs new players yeah but players who are ready, willing to learn, willing to embrace the game mechanics and accepting lasting losses instead of typical Chinese MMO mindset players which, when they die the only thing they have to repair is their armor for x amount of gold. EVE is harsh, EVE is brutal, that's what makes EVE, EVE. Take that, and you will end up in WoW in space.

Deal with it and warn others on this matter. Highsec isn't a risk free zone where CONCORD has to clean up the mess you made. If you can't be keen, alert and careful you will lose stuff like in the other zones of the game. Instead of crying maybe you should have flown a ship which you could afford to lose, cuz sir, when you hit that undock button you are accepting and willing to lose your ship. Sit in the station otherwise and watch some news otherwise... I'm not aiming my sentences directly at you , I'm just generally speaking.

http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html

#38 - 2014-02-18 21:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shizuken wrote:
These are the precise mechanics I was referring to. To a PvEer or "carebear" these are no less than CCP approved annoyance tools. It is exactly these types of things that annoy certain people and keep them from resubbing.
So? If they don't like the game, they don't like the game. So what?

I don't like MOBAs, so I don't play them and everyone is happy. The people you're talking about don't like EVE, so why are you so adamant that they be squeezed into EVE somehow?

Quote:
For those that enjoy PvP there is a place for that.
Yes: anywhere outside a station. Oh, and inside stations as well, using the market and local. And S&I slots.
#39 - 2014-02-18 21:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Shizuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
People are, however, free to use the mechanics at hand to kill other players. The risks and rewards for this are pretty much up to the players to decide: if you give up and just lie down waiting to die, the risk for the attacker will obviously be low. If you choose not to do that, it will be much higher.


These are the precise mechanics I was referring to. To a PvEer or "carebear" these are no less than CCP approved annoyance tools.
Those mechanics are an integral part of the game, the fact that the so called "annoyance tools" are CCP approved tools should tell people about the kind of game that they're playing.

Quote:
It is exactly these types of things that annoy certain people and keep them from resubbing. Not everyone likes playing for weeks jist to have the sum total of their free time destroyed before their very eyes.
Why are they playing then? Stuff blowing up is normal Eve gameplay, and drives the economy everybody, including the casuals and carebears, is indulging in.

If someone is dumb enough to undock with the sum total of their endeavours and then lose it...Roll

Quote:
For those that enjoy PvP there is a place for that.
Which includes highsec, as well as lowsec, nullsec and WHspace.

Quote:
But for those that don't, if you want them to actually play the game they need reasonable protection from that BS. Wardecs and light punishment for highsec ganking directly circumvent that.
They may be playing the wrong game. The only protection you get in Eve is the protection you provide for yourself. If you want to provide punishment for gankers over and above what Concord dishes out + the sec status drop and GCC timers then it's up to you to dish it out.

Wardecs and suicide ganking are part of the highsec environment, removal or alteration of both or either won't stop people dying. The gankers and wardeccers will just figure out alternative ways to make others explode, as they've done in the past.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Paradigm.
#40 - 2014-02-18 21:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Oliver Wendel Jones
Jared Lennox wrote:
Ummmm and here I thought EvE was a PeeVeePee game instead of a risk-free themepark MMO like most of the others on the market already. Highsec's security is overrated. Also for SOME reason, (this one confuses me a lot) people expect a 100% protection when they are living in highsec. Sir you were never so wrong... EvE needs new players yeah but players who are ready, willing to learn, willing to embrace the game mechanics and accepting lasting losses instead of typical Chinese MMO mindset players which, when they die the only thing they have to repair is their armor for x amount of gold. EVE is harsh, EVE is brutal, that's what makes EVE, EVE. Take that, and you will end up in WoW in space.

Deal with it and warn others on this matter. Highsec isn't a risk free zone where CONCORD has to clean up the mess you made. If you can't be keen, alert and careful you will lose stuff like in the other zones of the game. Instead of crying maybe you should have flown a ship which you could afford to lose, cuz sir, when you hit that undock button you are accepting and willing to lose your ship. Sit in the station otherwise and watch some news otherwise... I'm not aiming my sentences directly at you , I'm just generally speaking.



Ok, then how about this: Get rid of ALL pve beyond the tutorials. As soon as you learn that you join a corp and start PvP from then on. No more killing rats. No more wormholes. Nope, not needed. Just join a big corp and go after other people. It's not like there is any reason to play the game except the way you do, right?

No, don't make a change so that there is a certain time where players can develop and move into PvP when they are more ready. Throw the kid in the pool, and if he doesn't swim, he deserved to drown. Not be here amongst the keyyboad L33T. Again, it's obvious this all boils down to higher level players that don't want to risk having to face their peers.
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