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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

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Author
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#1 - 2013-12-09 16:27:18 UTC
As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

Instead of fighting each others, the PVP-minded FW pilots are forced to chase farmers out of plexes- endlessly. This is the most frustrating thing I've faced in EVE, and it's now time for CCP to acknowledge the situation.

My corpmate wrote a good blog post that lists the commonly suggested solutions:

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- rebalancing warp core stabs
- cloak prevention mechanism

Currently the farmers risk nearly nothing in space assets, time spent or lost value- cheapest PVE ships possible in game, timers don't reset and there's always a new plex to farm.

If you support fixing FW, post your ideas here, on all relevant forum sections or anywhere, contact your CSM representative or CCP directly. I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough, farming has to end. It's up to us to make CCP wake up.

.

Vidua Arte Album
Epic Boo Bees
#2 - 2013-12-09 16:38:54 UTC
Audiatur et altera pars.

Inevitably the farmers will flock to this thread.
Jack Morrison
Team Liquid crp.
#3 - 2013-12-09 16:39:56 UTC
Quote:
I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough

Mate, most FW pilots are farming alts, so you are definitely not speaking for 'most FW pilots'.

What is your point actually, you don't like farmers ? You don't want guys to make LPs/ISK easily ? Is something preventing you to make the same isk yourself ?

My opinion is the only problem with FW is the lack of goals / no reason to push forward after a certain tier has been achieved, no endgame in it whatsoever, only the constant cycle.

Looking for a group to pew with ? Have a chat with me.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#4 - 2013-12-09 16:39:59 UTC
Roime wrote:
As everybody knows by now, FW experience has been ruined by allowing low-SP alts in stabbed T1 frigates and empty clones to both farm insane amounts of ISK and affect warzone control.

Instead of fighting each others, the PVP-minded FW pilots are forced to chase farmers out of plexes- endlessly. This is the most frustrating thing I've faced in EVE, and it's now time for CCP to acknowledge the situation.

My corpmate wrote a good blog post that lists the commonly suggested solutions:

- timer rollbacks
- buffing the NPCs
- rebalancing warp core stabs
- cloak prevention mechanism

Currently the farmers risk nearly nothing in space assets, time spent or lost value- cheapest PVE ships possible in game, timers don't reset and there's always a new plex to farm.

If you support fixing FW, post your ideas here, on all relevant forum sections or anywhere, contact your CSM representative or CCP directly. I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough, farming has to end. It's up to us to make CCP wake up.


Too many powerful groups are heavily invested in FW farming for CSM, or CCP, to do anything about it.
That being said, if the day comes that CCP does nerf FW LP income, then I imagine they will have already axed incursion income, and L4 income.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#5 - 2013-12-09 16:43:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Too many powerful groups are heavily invested in FW farming for CSM, or CCP, to do anything about it.
Such as…?

Quote:
That being said, if the day comes that CCP does nerf FW LP income, then I imagine they will have already axed incursion income, and L4 income.
Why would they have to do that to do changes to FW?
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#6 - 2013-12-09 16:47:27 UTC
Jack Morrison wrote:
Quote:
I know I speak for most FW pilots when I say enough is enough

Mate, most FW pilots are farming alts, so you are definitely not speaking for 'most FW pilots'.


kk, got me there - you are correct :D

Quote:
What is your point actually, you don't like farmers ? You don't want guys to make LPs/ISK easily ? Is something preventing you to make the same isk yourself ?

My opinion is the only problem with FW is the lack of goals / no reason to push forward after a certain tier has been achieved, no endgame in it whatsoever, only the constant cycle.


My point is, as explained in the OP, that instead of PVP we are currently forced to chase farmers out of plexes to defend our home systems. And no, I don't think it should be possible to farm as much ISK as it currently is in FW. The income is comparable to low-end sleeper PVE, hisec L4 missions and requires less than 1/10th of the SP and ISK investment.

No, absolutely nothing prevents me to roll a dozen alts and multibox them to farm LP for whatever the highest tier militia currently is- except that I actually like PVP in this game and very much prefer every logged on minute fighting or finding fights.

The motives and goal to push people out of systems and reclaim them can't be created by CCP or game mechanics. People haven't fought over Heyd/OMS/Ladistier for LP. PVP is about winning the other guy.

.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#7 - 2013-12-09 17:08:05 UTC
Roime wrote:
The income is comparable to low-end sleeper PVE, hisec L4 missions and requires less than 1/10th of the SP and ISK investment.



People should also understand that this comparison is lowballing based on lazy farmers and low tier. When things hit T4 and the farmers really crank up, it's perfectly possible to pull into the billions with a fresh rolled alt within a week.

FW plex farming has, bar-none, the lowest barrier of entry to any ISK transfer in the game. You can spin d-plexes with a day one alt, and within three be running novice and small o-plexes, assuming you're forced to kill the rat and don't find a half-finished plex to scam.

And let's not get started on the joke that comprises L4 FW missions.
Prince Kobol
#8 - 2013-12-09 17:17:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Too many powerful groups are heavily invested in FW farming for CSM, or CCP, to do anything about it.
Such as…?


I suppose some would say that there have been some very large alliances that have used FW as a simple, easy, yet very effective means to earn a substantial amount of isk in a relative short space of time.

You could also say that many of the 3 - 5 day old throw away alts which are currently just isk farming with ease are alts of null sec pilots and have no interest in FW other then to easily farm isk.

You could then compound on that by saying that if CCP were to somehow limit the ability of these few day throw away old alts to farm isk and effect FW then this would make many people who are in null sec and are part of large null sec alliances very cross as you would have removed a very easy way of farming isk.

You could say all of these things or you could say its all boll**ks.

Your choice.
Billy Hix
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2013-12-09 17:19:12 UTC
So how does this low SP Isk farming work then? You know....for er ... Science.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#10 - 2013-12-09 17:23:55 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
You could say all of these things or you could say its all boll**ks.

Your choice.
More importantly, you could say all of those things and still be left with the question of “So what?”

Why would the CSM or CCP not do anything about it if it's a problem? What are these powerful groups? How are they keeping CCP from fixing things that are broken?
Rainbow Dash
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-12-09 17:26:31 UTC
L4s at T3/4 are surprisingly bad isk/hr, because everyone else is busy crashing the LP price. Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-12-09 17:30:14 UTC
Rainbow Dash wrote:
surprisingly bad isk/hr


Rainbow Dash wrote:
Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr


Rainbow Dash wrote:
Right now I'm barely making 400m/hr


Rainbow Dash wrote:
surprisingly bad isk/hr


You know that other thread we have, where the wormhole-dweller OP got ganked in highsec in his faction fit ECM Tengu? There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is. That seems to be happening here. Of course the difference is that wormhole dwellers have to put considerably more effort and risk into what they do for their gains.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-12-09 17:35:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know that other thread we have, where the wormhole-dweller OP got ganked in highsec in his faction fit ECM Tengu? There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is. That seems to be happening here. Of course the difference is that wormhole dwellers have to put considerably more effort and risk into what they do for their gains.

Or maybe he just was being sarcastic. Not that it would've stopped him, and others, from using what they can use Smile
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#14 - 2013-12-09 17:37:44 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
You know that other thread we have, where the wormhole-dweller OP got ganked in highsec in his faction fit ECM Tengu? There's insinuation that because wormhole dwellers make so much ISK, they lose touch of what a more standard income actually is. That seems to be happening here. Of course the difference is that wormhole dwellers have to put considerably more effort and risk into what they do for their gains.

Or maybe he just was being sarcastic. Not that it would've stopped him, and others, from using what they can use Smile


Actually, he's probably not. Considering the potential gains of MAX_FARMING, 400m/hr is on the lower half of the scale for L4 FW missions.

It really is a matter of skewed perspective, though.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-12-09 17:37:50 UTC
I'll abstain from this thread then since I don't have direct knowledge, but given what I've heard it wouldn't surprise me if he were serious.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#16 - 2013-12-09 17:39:11 UTC
Rainbow Dash was rather obviously sarcastic, but FW L4s are not really relevant to this thread- I don't care if FW mission runners make 2bil/hr no matter how broken it is, since their mission running has no effect on system occupancy. The hundreds of stealth bombers flying around are irrelevant.

Disposable plex farming alts, however, can't be ignored. These farmers will eventually push the system vulnerable if left unattended. No RF timers, no PVP, just week old alts orbiting a button.




.

SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-12-09 17:47:44 UTC
Agreed, had a farming plexer yesterday call me a "noob loser" for trying to get a fight Lol in Faction Warfare..

I disagree

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#18 - 2013-12-09 17:49:16 UTC
Roime wrote:
I don't care if FW mission runners make 2bil/hr no matter how broken it is, since their mission running has no effect on system occupancy.


You're blind if you think it doesn't contribute. Even the stealth bombers like riding the gravy train; who do you think keeps those ihubs crammed with LP for so long? Hint: It's not the plex farmers that have nothing to do but d-plex after two weeks.

Ultimately, you're quite correct that the root of the problem is low barrier of entry and the incredibly broken payouts associated with plex farming. But it leads to other problems that also need correction in the long run.

Personally, I don't believe that high warzone tier should be the only factor in high payouts.

There needs to be an actual loyalty system incorporated, so that time served and actions taken are also a factor; you will never get rid of farmers completely, but you can limit them to the dregs of FW rewards, and save the good stuff for people who stay and contribute to the PvP element.
MinutemanKirk
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#19 - 2013-12-09 18:02:58 UTC
I was also working on a post regarding this issue and will contribute my thoughts pertaining to lowsec as much as FW here instead.

As many know, QCATS is one of the best individual PvP corps in the game right now. We passed over 5k kills last month, are #2 on Battleclinic and are going to become #1 in short order (seeing as how we are generating 3-4 times the number of points per week as the Tuskers). Obviously, we find things to shoot. I say this in this context: we are very active PvPers and have numerous pilots who would qualify for the top ten in individual skill.
We are in FW so money is (generally) not an issue for those who can play with any frequency. We have excellent forums, logstics, corp doctrines so our members will always have something to do. We have about a 50-50 EU to US TZ presence now, and as such pilots will almost always have someone to fly with.
Recent;y, a member posted on our forums reflecting an attitude I have come to see as fairly prevalent not only among QCATS, but other groups in lowsec as well. In a vocal particular, Rixx (and his new corp Stay Frosty) has tweeted numerous times in recent weeks about this same thing. I wanted to give the above background to help clarify that it wasn't simply something wrong with the corp that influenced his desire for a break.

Here is what he had to say (with a few things edited out):
"Taking a vacation trip to some distant star far away from all the [crap].
I'm quite thoroughly pissed and tired about blobs, cloaks, stabs and smartbombing [punks] currently prevalent in our neighborhood, and will take the rest of the month off from regular service. I thought about quitting FW for a while, but with my sec status it doesn't actually make any difference whether I'm enrolled or not."

Now obviously there are parts of that text that will never go away, things like smartbomb camps and blobs will always be a part of Eve everywhere you go. But the part I want to make the most light upon was the stabs and cloaks. Not just from a FW standpoint (in dealing with AFK plexers) but from a general lowsec context as well: there are absurd numbers of people in lowsec that are affecting the game by making isk with little to no risk to themselves and, furthermore, are doing so in ships that cost almost nothing to replace.

This is not only forcing PvP corps to change how they fight, but it's also changing how making ISK works. It's hard enough for the pirate corps to fight over DED sights or clone tags without also trying to drive out farmers using say, drakes with a cloak and stabs who is making the same ISK without anywhere near the risk-ISK ratio.
The plain and simple fact is: people who don't want to get shot, who don't contribute anything to Eve except sapping resources from people who want to actually enjoy Eve without abusing the intent of certain mechanics are becoming more and more difficult to counter in any way.

As the QCAT member's post has (I hope) put in a fairly understandable light, simply the mentality of trying to deal with said groups is becoming a poison for the game and I doubt that this is the mentality that CCP wants emulated. I recall from various discussions regarding highsec that there should ALWAYS be risk and that while, the level of risk should be determined, in part, by the pilot (I.E. don't jump blind into lowsec, don't fly around in an officer fit ship in dumb ways, don't put your titan all by itself on a nullsec gate, etc.) there should always be a risk inherent of simply undocking. Sadly however, the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction: Pilots are abusing methods of loss prevention in order to completely remove themselves from risk without proper balance or counters. There have been suggestions for specific modules and how to balance them, for instance, making a ship with WCS unable to activate (or fit) any kind of systems that could damage another ship or item (smartbombs, turrets, drones) or make it impossible to target NPC's with a non-Cov Ops cloak etc. While I would support something so drastic as a stopgap measure, I also know that's now what CCP wants. In FW specific situations, I know there are other options to discourage that kind of behavior as well such as rollback timers for plexes, prohibiting cloaked ships from entering plexes etc. But again though, as I understand it, these issues abound elsewhere as well.

I feel that this is something that has long been making itself manifest within Eve itself for some time and, TBH, there will ALWAYS be people who want to play the game in such a way and, as a sandbox game, there is nothing wrong with that. But when it begins to drive out players trying to do what CCP has designed and intended a certain feature to do (again in this case, FW for small gang fighting and plexes to aid in that) then I think that the problem is greater than the intent.
And the intent of FW? Combat. As mentioned here and here, the intent of FW from the beginning was combat. And, as has been mentioned already in this discussion, a vast majority of the raw number of pilots within FW are farming alts.
The intent of DED sites and other forms of lowsec wealth? Risk vs Reward (and maybe funding for those pirates who can't get into highsec anymore) and not just a different way to make more money with as much risk as highsec.

Just my .50 cents.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#20 - 2013-12-09 18:03:14 UTC
i think as soon there are timer rollbacks you don't need any of the other points. It will all fix itself. All you have to do is to patrol your space and pve boats have no chance anymore to control the warzone. Cloaks, stabs whatever.. all become useless.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

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