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Covert Cyno in HighSec

Author
Rammix
TheMurk
#1 - 2013-11-15 15:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
It. Must. Be.

Arguments for that:
1) It's logical. Cynojammers don't prevent covert cynos from being lit.
2) They're unavailable for capitals: only covert ships and Black Ops.
3) Covert Cynos are meant to be used for small- and medium-scaled pvp, it suits very well for highsec wardec pvp.
4) Tonns of fun for wardec pvp. Covert hotdrops, counter-hotdrops and counter-counter-hotdrops, highly mobile fleets.
5) Suits well with Rubicon and capsuleer independence theme.



While the discussion developed, this idea got some improvements (obviously, "covcyno" in every line here means "covcyno in highsec").
1. Covcyno should make everyone who lights it or jumps to it get suspect flag.
2. Covcyno beacon should be visible in overview through the whole system, like normal cynos in other parts of Eve.
3. The security status of a character should get lowered a bit (maybe, like for a podkill in lowsec) each time it lights covcyno. --> more demand for security tags and more ratting activity in lowsec; less safety and more attention to the cyno characters.
4. Lighting covcynos in the 4 main trade hubs should not be allowed.

Strong points of the idea:
Mobile pvp fleets, more dynamic pvp, hotdropping and counter-hotdropping fun, mercenary service market evolution, more small-scale pvp for smaller pvp entities, entrance to pvp for newcoming players (by making highsec pvp more popular in general), potentially more people interested in pvp and going further to nullsec, lowsec and Anoikis (w-space).

Weaker points:
Has potential to create network of covcyno service providers (like current freighting organizations) for super-fast covert travel. Though, this means more characters with suspect flag at a moment of time, which means more pvp targets.
Inexperienced "pure" carebear corporations have to adapt to potentially higher activity of wardeccers, or at last have to start to use mercenary services.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Dokura Chrome
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-11-15 15:11:53 UTC
Friendly bump. I think this idea must be realize by CCP. +1
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#3 - 2013-11-15 15:46:36 UTC
Maby the Empires have beter technology than those... from nullsec LolRoll

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Dark Drifter
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#4 - 2013-11-15 17:59:44 UTC
can we get a rig added so that we can send non covert ships through a covert cyno.

small rig only!!!

"small covert-cynosaural field adaptation"

allows (when fitted) the ship to use a covert jump portal.

bonus: able to jump using covert cyno
penalty: mass of hull increased 30%

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5 - 2013-11-15 19:18:06 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
can we get a rig added so that we can send non covert ships through a covert cyno.

small rig only!!!

"small covert-cynosaural field adaptation"

allows (when fitted) the ship to use a covert jump portal.

bonus: able to jump using covert cyno
penalty: mass of hull increased 30%



Because that wouldn't be horribly and utterly broken beyond any horribly broken thing that has ever been horribly and utterly broken in the past... right? Right?
Torijace
The Upside Down
Forfeiture
#6 - 2013-11-15 19:29:14 UTC
I don't see any obvious issue with it. It will certainly make high sec wars more interesting...
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#7 - 2013-11-15 19:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
1) It's logical. Cynojammers don't prevent covert cynos from being lit.

Hisec has super-jammers Cool.

3) Covert Cynos are meant to be used for small- and medium-scaled pvp, it suits very well for highsec wardec pvp.
4) Tonns of fun for wardec pvp. Covert hotdrops, counter-hotdrops and counter-counter-hotdrops, highly mobile fleets.

This would be OP as hell. Really OP. Violates the principle of fair chase. Currently if someone wardecs you but shows no intention of fighting, you can turn up the vigilance meter to 11 and go about your daily business using scouts, watchlists, and local and by basically not being an easy target. Rightfully putting the onus on the attacker to get the jump on you, outsmart you, or catch you napping. Allowing neutral alts to covert cyno in a ganksquad would be such a powerful deterrent that you could shut down a target corporation without ever undocking. This whole thing would be okay for wardecs IF you could only use a covert bridge or jump to a covert cyno (in hisec) if the cyno-beacon-person is in your alliance, but I don't see that happening.

5) Suits well with Rubicon and capsuleer independence theme.

It has literally nothing to do with this. If you want big-boy toys, then go to big-boy space.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

novellus
The Special Snowflakes
#8 - 2013-11-15 22:10:33 UTC
I actually realllllly like the idea that, if the capsuleers ever take over, they actually have to first destroy the empire's cyno-jammers -- opening the floodgates to capitals/supercapitals flooding into empire fringe territory.

I'd rather be fighting for serpentis / angel cartel / guristas / sasha's nation instead of for the big SOV nullsec alliances, though.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#9 - 2013-11-16 00:22:12 UTC
-1

The main reason is that neutral bumpers/logis are already deeply seeded into highsec PVP, we don't need to add neutral covert cynos to that as well.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#10 - 2013-11-16 00:54:34 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
-1

The main reason is that neutral bumpers/logis are already deeply seeded into highsec PVP, we don't need to add neutral covert cynos to that as well.

That can be fixed by giving the person who lit the covert cyno a suspect timer. It would create an inherent cost to doing it in high sec due to no T1 ships being able to fit a covert cyno.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Rammix
TheMurk
#11 - 2013-11-16 01:09:31 UTC
Batelle wrote:
4) Tonns of fun for wardec pvp. Covert hotdrops, counter-hotdrops and counter-counter-hotdrops, highly mobile fleets.

This would be OP as hell. Really OP. Violates the principle of fair chase.

Stress in quotation made by me. Fair? What?? I thought in eve everybody forget this word after the first pvp experience.
There is no such thing as fair chase or fair fight, except set-up competitions like tournaments.

Batelle wrote:

not being an easy target.

I don't like this part of your sentence. The thing is that highsec carebears must be easy targets. "Not-so-easy" ones tend to live in more dangerous places. Or if they live in highsec they're able to fight back (or hire those who are able) instead of hiding and corp-jumping.

Batelle wrote:

Rightfully putting the onus on the attacker to get the jump on you, outsmart you, or catch you napping. Allowing neutral alts to covert cyno in a ganksquad would be such a powerful deterrent that you could shut down a target corporation without ever undocking.

If you're wardecced you know about it. Not a problem to hire some mercs, put a cloaky cov.cyno alt close to you and wait for enemy hotdrop - to counter-hotdrop mercs upon them.

Batelle wrote:
5) Suits well with Rubicon and capsuleer independence theme.

It has literally nothing to do with this. If you want big-boy toys, then go to big-boy space.

No, it has a lot.
1, covert cyno is not a "big-boy toy", it's a small or medium gang "toy".
2, Rubicon brings covert ships which seem to become an excellent choise for relatively cheap covert pvp gangs. And cov cyno usage is very natural for such gangs. Also, the whole theme of rise of capsuleers goes well with increased pvp activity and diversity in high security warfare.

At this moment I haven't seen any reasonable objection to this idea. Only few carebears afraid of being killed and too lazy to do anything except killing rats.
If you're afraid of wardecs and want to just spend all your time ratting - go to wormholes, they're empty. Or hire people to help you fight back - the whole new mercenary thing was introduced just for you.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Rammix
TheMurk
#12 - 2013-11-16 01:11:34 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
-1

The main reason is that neutral bumpers/logis are already deeply seeded into highsec PVP, we don't need to add neutral covert cynos to that as well.

That can be fixed by giving the person who lit the covert cyno a suspect timer. It would create an inherent cost to doing it in high sec due to no T1 ships being able to fit a covert cyno.

Good idea. Making covert cynos lit in highsec visible through the whole system (like normal cynos) - would help too.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Anomaly One
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-11-16 01:32:53 UTC
+1 high sec needs some shaking up, this could do well for competitive mercs.

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-11-16 03:16:42 UTC
For me .... There is only one problem with this.

It's war decs..

That friendly pve corp who enjoys their mission running gets war deced.... *tears* but they learn to live with it. And move away from the war targets to the other side of the universe.

Now the war targets can simply grab an alt who is not in corp, nor is he flashing red to their targets, track down the members of the corp, and pounce on them from 10 systems away.... Is this fair?

The ship that lights the covert cyno could be a hauler ! There is no way for the pve guys to counter the neutral alts of the war decers.

How to fix this...... Well I don't see a way. Even if you did make lighting a covert cyno in highsec a 'illegal action' the war decers aren't going to care about going suspect for 15 mins...

ONE possible solution.... Is to make anyone and everything that lights, or jumps to a covert cyno suspect. That way the entire fleet becomes a free for all. But I still don't think that outweighs a mission runner or even a miner having a neutral light a cyno on him, and drop a whole fleet of bombers, blops or t3's on him. ( and with rubicon the new sisters ships - yes ... They can bridge aswell!!!)

O7 Dringy
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#15 - 2013-11-16 03:24:24 UTC
Have high sec corps who are at war restricted to using covert ops cynos from corp/alliance only. Simples ;)
Rammix
TheMurk
#16 - 2013-11-16 17:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
This:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

That can be fixed by giving the person who lit the covert cyno a suspect timer.

or this:
Rammix wrote:
Making covert cynos lit in highsec visible through the whole system (like normal cynos) - would help too.

or this:
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
Have high sec corps who are at war restricted to using covert ops cynos from corp/alliance only. Simples ;)
or a combination of all three.

But I personally would remove the 3rd point. Because local as an intel source must be severely nerfed. Carebears instead of being damn lazy should learn to use d-scan. With d-scan you can see if someone is trying to probe you down.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#17 - 2013-11-16 18:17:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
-1

The main reason is that neutral bumpers/logis are already deeply seeded into highsec PVP, we don't need to add neutral covert cynos to that as well.

That can be fixed by giving the person who lit the covert cyno a suspect timer. It would create an inherent cost to doing it in high sec due to no T1 ships being able to fit a covert cyno.


Not really, all that would happen is a falcon would decloak next to the person, and then 10 WT would be pointing him in T3 cruisers when he was by himself.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Rammix
TheMurk
#18 - 2013-11-16 20:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
-1

The main reason is that neutral bumpers/logis are already deeply seeded into highsec PVP, we don't need to add neutral covert cynos to that as well.

That can be fixed by giving the person who lit the covert cyno a suspect timer. It would create an inherent cost to doing it in high sec due to no T1 ships being able to fit a covert cyno.


Not really, all that would happen is a falcon would decloak next to the person, and then 10 WT would be pointing him in T3 cruisers when he was by himself.

Cov cyno can't be lit inside an anomaly with acceleration gates.
To decloak near someone who's in an anomaly (without gates - for this example) you first need to probe him down. If he's not too lame he will see probes on the d-scan and knowing about the war he will be ready to warp off.
If they make cov cyno in highsec "shine" through the whole system like normal cynos do - anybody will be able to warp to that falcon.

As a conclusion: if you as a carebear are not too dumb or too lazy you will still have pretty much opportunities to survive and prosper.

p.s.
If you're a wardecced miner you still can make clever warp-off spots around you and be aligned all the time.
And as I've already said, you can hire merceneries who would put their own cov cyno alts near you to use your ships as a bait for counter-hotdrops.

Everything said in this topic just proves that covert cynos can make highsec pvp a LOT more entertaining.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Rammix
TheMurk
#19 - 2013-11-18 12:17:56 UTC
Bump.

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread

Dokura Chrome
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-11-18 12:57:37 UTC
To miners in high sec who have wars. Then the only difference is that your killer will appear with fireworks and crackers (more special effects), rather than the old way out of warp. You'll die with such periodical as before. But more fireworks. \0/

Follow simple rules. Hire merceneries. Fly safe. 0\

And add covert cyno in high sec! :D
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