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Distinguishing PvP <----> MPvP?!?

Author
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-09-27 19:24:16 UTC
Often I see gang-players (pirates) referring to some fights as their PvP-fights whereas the killboard clearly show it was only a fight of group vs. 1 player. Would it not be more accurate to actually refer to such fights as MPvP (multi-player against 1 player)? There is a significant distinction here since in real PvP both players involved are willingly taking far more risks of loosing in duellings whereas MPvP for the MP-part almost zero-risk-taking is involved. For me it does not matter at all or so, since I like all kinds of fights, it just made me wonder when I noticed that far too often gang-players (low-sec or 0-sec) incorrectly flatter themselves stating they are experienced PvP-ers whereas they most of the time refer to their MPvP-fights. Correct would be to refer to them as experienced MpvP fighters, instead?! When one watches the killboards you see the MPvP fighters loosing far less ships than the real PvP-fighters which I for example sometimes watch fighting at Jita (and those guys, often veteran players are real good at PvP(!), show real good fights and they willingly are taking far more risks in intelligent 1vs1 PvP-fights). So, just wondering distinguishing PvP from MPvP would that not be far more accurate, considering that compared to real PvP-fighting a participation in MPvP represent 'some walk in the park' so to speak, yes? Your opinions now.

(note: above is not ironically meant; just represents a sincere thought)
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#2 - 2013-09-27 19:28:23 UTC
Just buy a new ship.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#3 - 2013-09-27 19:31:49 UTC
I think you got confused by dueling feature and thought Eve is game of honor and fair fights.

Invalid signature format

FightingMoose
Blackwater USA Inc.
#4 - 2013-09-27 19:33:30 UTC
All of that would have to be done by killboards; I suggest you propose those changes to them. I don't expect you to get much positive feedback here though.

Proud owner of an Ibis.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-09-27 19:34:52 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I think you got confused by dueling feature and thought Eve is game of honor and fair fights.


Yes, well. When you spend your time watching arranged fights on the 4-4 undock...
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-09-27 22:54:29 UTC
FightingMoose wrote:
All of that would have to be done by killboards; I suggest you propose those changes to them. I don't expect you to get much positive feedback here though.


No misunderstanding here, killboards are real fine as they are, its just the false referrings i see some gang-players often & easily making to others re their 'supposed' pvp-achievements which actually are not PvP at all but some MPvP only (fyg = English abbrev: Player versus Player = PvP + Multi = MPvP). Again they could become experienced PvP'ers in time if they would open their minds for more risk-taking and duelling, but that is up to each low-sec (0-sec) individual to decide for themselves. But until one decides to do so: maybe better one should not go lecturing others about PvP on the basis of own experiences in MPvP engagements only?
Eggs Ackley
#7 - 2013-09-27 22:57:54 UTC
Make some friends instead of always getting blapped and going on the forums complaining? Sounds like a plan!
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#8 - 2013-09-27 23:06:21 UTC
If it weren't for those cowardly pirates, I'd never lose a ship. Where would be the fun in that?

But to the point. They are players and I'm a player, so it is, in fact, player versus player game play.

Mr Epeen Cool
Asuka Smith
StarHunt
#9 - 2013-09-27 23:08:15 UTC
While at first glance your argument is appealing, but look a little deeper and it gets more complicated. Typically the smaller the fight the more the fight is won or lost on raw ship type match up and total sp, and it's actually a lot less skillful in my eyes than anything but the most gruesome gank. You see, on the killmail 10 guys killing one is not so good looking, but you don't see the effort that went in before the fight. It probably took good probing, scanning, and/or baiting. It also took stealth and situational awareness not to get counter ganked. While its true that sometimes a noob jumps a gate blind and just dies automatically, but most people who are being hunted become aware of that fact quickly, takes more skill to catch a ratter wo isn't Afk than to fight a duel.

Furthermore, you are implying that unfair pvp is less legitimate than a 1v1. I think it takes quite a bit of skill to set up a one sided fight. Wining a 5v5 is about shiptypes and sp. getting a 5v1 takes more skill IMO.

Ofc the most skilled pvp is large fleets where tactics, sp, scouting, etc all add together to win or lose.
Donbe Scurred
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-09-27 23:08:56 UTC
You have a lot to learn, you have been hemorrhaging isk. How much RL cash have dumped into this game trying to win?

Hint: bigger is rarely better in this game.

Try flying frigates or cruisers before you start fighting in BC, I would not take a BC to low sec unless I had support or a very well scouted path to my destination.

Find friends, you'll learn a lot quicker and you'll have someone besides a bunch of trolls (myself included) telling you what you should be doing.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#11 - 2013-09-27 23:16:41 UTC
Chin MonWang wrote:
Often I see gang-players (pirates) referring to some fights as their PvP-fights whereas the killboard clearly show it was only a fight of group vs. 1 player. Would it not be more accurate to actually refer to such fights as MPvP (multi-player against 1 player)? There is a significant distinction here since in real PvP both players involved are willingly taking far more risks of loosing in duellings whereas MPvP for the MP-part almost zero-risk-taking is involved. For me it does not matter at all or so, since I like all kinds of fights, it just made me wonder when I noticed that far too often gang-players (low-sec or 0-sec) incorrectly flatter themselves stating they are experienced PvP-ers whereas they most of the time refer to their MPvP-fights. Correct would be to refer to them as experienced MpvP fighters, instead?! When one watches the killboards you see the MPvP fighters loosing far less ships than the real PvP-fighters which I for example sometimes watch fighting at Jita (and those guys, often veteran players are real good at PvP(!), show real good fights and they willingly are taking far more risks in intelligent 1vs1 PvP-fights). So, just wondering distinguishing PvP from MPvP would that not be far more accurate, considering that compared to real PvP-fighting a participation in MPvP represent 'some walk in the park' so to speak, yes? Your opinions now.

(note: above is not ironically meant; just represents a sincere thought)


nice one, rough calculations even show people solo shooting cynos have a bigger challange compared to those 30 vs. 1 fleets out there... I call the PvP out there PvZ, player vs. zero because only one in that 30 vs. 1 has a fight, the solo pilot, the others just fight against Zero

I had a lot of PvP out there however my opponents only had PvZ

I also got the feeling that PvZ is the main reason for severe braindamage in big alliances, however further investigations need to be done on that matter...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2013-09-27 23:28:47 UTC

A few points:

1.) Non-consensual PvP is a very strong component of EvE game play. If you are flying around in a 10+ man gang, and a target of opportunity gets tackled by your buddy, everyone is going to gank that target. Learning how to avoid getting ganked like that, and perfecting your ability to catch targets that don't want to be caught are very legitimate parts of the game that aren't nearly as trivial skillwise as say, gate camping.

2.) A fight can be balanced without having even numbers. A solo BS might willingly take on a 4 man cruiser gang with a decent expectation of victory.

3.) Not everyone shows up in the battle report. Logistics are a major force multiplier that are often not found on the killmail battle report.

With that being said, there are many players in this game that think good PvP is risk-free PvP, where they only engage if they think they can not only win the fight, but do so with minimal to no losses. They tout this as "smart", which if your goal it is from some fiscal point of view. Personally, I prefer more challenging PvP engagements, where player skill, knowledge, and teamwork make the difference between victory and loss. It would be very hard to distinguish that from killboards, especially since they don't show you the timing of a fight either (like when reinforcements arrived, etc).


Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2013-09-27 23:48:06 UTC
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic

What an appropriate corporation name.
i-AA
Cream Pie Carpet Munchers
#14 - 2013-09-28 00:36:43 UTC
Here.. Have some more tissues..
Paranoid Loyd
#15 - 2013-09-28 00:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Vald Tegor wrote:
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic

What an appropriate corporation name.


Mmmmm, native freshfood
Ships from that corp are quite tasty, I had two Mammoths for dinner last night, they were both excellent.Twisted

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-09-28 00:55:23 UTC
Chin MonWang wrote:
FightingMoose wrote:
All of that would have to be done by killboards; I suggest you propose those changes to them. I don't expect you to get much positive feedback here though.


No misunderstanding here, killboards are real fine as they are, its just the false referrings i see some gang-players often & easily making to others re their 'supposed' pvp-achievements which actually are not PvP at all but some MPvP only (fyg = English abbrev: Player versus Player = PvP + Multi = MPvP). Again they could become experienced PvP'ers in time if they would open their minds for more risk-taking and duelling, but that is up to each low-sec (0-sec) individual to decide for themselves. But until one decides to do so: maybe better one should not go lecturing others about PvP on the basis of own experiences in MPvP engagements only?


eve pvp is far more involved than 1v1 duals and if it were just 1v1 duals it would be a pretty rubbish game. from metagaming to ganking to small groups successfully engaging much large more powerful groups eve pvp is multilayered and complex. Trying to define myraid sub categories for no real purpose is a huge waste of time and you should just buy a new ship.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2013-09-28 01:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#18 - 2013-09-28 02:39:45 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Here's a thought to chew on OP...

Killboards only show the people who died and the people who killed the person who died. It will not show every person who was involved in a fight but managed to escape.

Killboards also "duplicate" the parties involved when they switch to a different ship and fight again in the same system... making groups appear bigger than they actually are.

Take killboard battle summaries with a grain of salt.

I actually am amused when pods are using 1400mm guns or something...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Cai Lun
Dvice Shipyards
#19 - 2013-09-28 02:43:45 UTC
'PvP in EvE is Player vs People in Everyone vs Everyone', what I've been told many years ago and still feels true.
Chin MonWang
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-09-28 02:58:09 UTC
Jee, do I realy have to spell it out to you, well, ok: some person tried to humiliate me on another thread (stating I better could go practicing with at least 1000 frigites pvp hoping to reach his high level of pvp understanding?! btw he did not accept my invitation for some duels to put some action to his hot air. As I anticipated the person did not accept and vanished in the blinck of an eye in thin air. Proved to be some minor 'attribute' to a fleet operating group. So, I countered, I placed this thread as a counter blow towards that laughable bullying person.

Sometimes I feel like realy being in the presence of all kinds of rocket scientists (some of them for sure of extra terrestrial origin), any tiny bit of well placed irony escaping to their attention, obviously. Where are our Doc Mc Coy's and Scotty's? Cheers!

(...maybe I should also have added Mr. Spock, since he was always the one setting Doc Mc Coy in full gear!)
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