These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

NPC Defenders in Odyssey

Author
stoicfaux
#1 - 2013-07-28 01:49:51 UTC
Problem
People stopped seeing NPC Defenders missiles and wondered if NPCs were still launching them.

Action Item
Test it.

Summary of Results
* NPCs are still using Defenders
* You're not seeing them because the graphics changed
* NPC Defenders still trigger on "salvos" and not on the number of missile in a salvo. Meaning, the number of missiles in the salvo has no bearing on the NPC Defender launch chance. Thus, the more missiles in the group, the less DPS loss you experience to Defenders.[1]

Test Setup
I used a couple of Core Rear Admirals in the Massive Attack (Serpentis) mission as my targets since they have a 24% chance of firing a Defender and because they have identical shield and armor resists (however all damage was done against shields.)

I used a Tengu with HMLs, Nova T1 missiles, and HML launchers. I orbited the acceleration gate (orbit set at 1500m) in the second pocket and fired missiles at them. I fired 160 salvos (HML launchers hold 40 missiles.) NPCs orbited at least 30+km out.

Test 1: One missile per salvo
160 salvos were fired. 160 missiles in total were launched. The logs show that only 122 missiles hit the target, thus 38 salvos were destroyed. 1 - (160-38) / 160 = .238. End result is that ~24% of salvos were intercepted by NPC Defenders.

Test 2: Six missiles per salvo
160 salvos were fired. (960 missiles in total were launched.) The logs recorded 160 hits. The breakdown of damage per salvo was:
* 32 hits for 251 damage: "251 to Core Rear Admiral - Nova Heavy Missile - Hits"
* 128 hits for 301 damage: "301 to Core Rear Admiral - Nova Heavy Missile - Hits"
* There were no other damage results.
Which means that ~20% of salvos were hit by a Defender. Given the small sample size, 20% is close enough to 24%, unless someone who is good with statistics says otherwise.

Please note that (301 - 251) / 301 = 0.166, i.e. one sixth, which means that one missile in the salvo was being destroyed by the Defender. The lack of damage variety in salvos means that stacks were only getting hit by one Defender. Meaning, if the Defender launch chance was checked for each missile in the volley, then we should have seen volleys that were reduced by two or more Defenders, but we didn't, so it doesn't.

DPS Loss
With one missile per salvo, the DPS loss was 1 - (160 - 38) / 160 = 23.8%.
With six missiles per salvo, the DPS loss was 1 - (960 - 32) /960 = 3.3%


Graphics
Previously, NPC Defenders had very flashy graphics and it was obvious when they were launched. However, with the missile graphics overhaul, NPC Defenders use the new missile graphics as well. They also appear to travel in a straight line. Long story short, Defenders are being launched, but they're harder to see now.



[1] Barring certain NPCs which can kill multiple missiles per defender. This came up a while back, look around post #19.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-07-28 02:10:35 UTC
Good info, thanks for posting that.



DMC
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#3 - 2013-07-28 05:39:27 UTC
what if I'm shooting 15km/s cruise missiles Bear

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

stoicfaux
#4 - 2013-07-29 02:14:22 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
what if I'm shooting 15km/s cruise missiles Bear

We'll never know... because I managed to lose my Golem with it's tech 2 missile speed rigs after a client disconnect after gaining full room aggro in the Evolution storyline mission.. *grumble*


If I get the chance, I'll orbit an NPC at close range and see if distance/speed negates NPC defenders.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

stoicfaux
#5 - 2013-07-29 04:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
what if I'm shooting 15km/s cruise missiles Bear

Interesting. I slapped some speed rigs on a Tengu and got 15.5km/s missile speed.

Tentatively, preliminary, not finalized yet, need to do more testing, results seem to possibly indicate that NPC defenders need ~2+ seconds of time to hit. Meaning, at 15km/s missile speed, NPC defenders have a noticeable reduced chance of hitting your missile within 30km. Against a Core Rear Admiral, 111 out of 120 missiles hit when the NPC's range varied from ~30km to 51km. That's a 7.5% defender hit rate versus a 24% launch rate.

Visibly, you could frequently see defenders go wild after missing (same flight path as the pre-missile graphics update,) or you could see them intercept at midrange. There may be some dependence on the server 1 hertz processing rate.

With 10.2km/s speed missiles, at 11-12km, no defenders hit. Around 20-21km range, defenders were hitting ~14% of the time. Defender impacts were occurring right next to the NPC.

Needs more testing with better controls. I'll see what I can see later this week.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-07-29 08:02:16 UTC
The only problem we have is that CCP should remove defenders from game period.

they are useless and outdated crap.

CCP should make missiles faster 2x in general, reduce flight time to compensate and make missiles like guns... what I mean is that they sould not be physical "items" in space.

reduces server load and makes them viable everywhere like guns.


explosion radius/speed already nerfs damage.. why have 3-rd factor ?

while guns blap smalls at range and lol all day long...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-29 10:58:09 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
If I get the chance, I'll orbit an NPC at close range and see if distance/speed negates NPC defenders.



It definitely did back in the day - I know because in my VERY early days in null ratting, it was the only way I could break some BS tanks with my humble drake was to orbit right up point blank.
Dorrann
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-07-29 11:00:16 UTC
For uniqueness and flavour. If all the weapon systems were the same in performance and limitations there would be no reason to use anything other than the flavour of the month highest DPS/Alpha Striker weapon.

I WOULD Like to see NPC defenders being much easier to see being used though.

I'd also love an explanation for entire salvoes disappearing without impacting even though the previous and next salvoes DO hit successfully (meaning its not a range issue). I wondered if that were perhaps a Smartbomb being used to pop the salvo but in the absence of a graphical representation of said Smartie its hard to be sure.
Dorrann
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-07-29 11:01:54 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
If I get the chance, I'll orbit an NPC at close range and see if distance/speed negates NPC defenders.



It definitely did back in the day - I know because in my VERY early days in null ratting, it was the only way I could break some BS tanks with my humble drake was to orbit right up point blank.


I used to use the same thing against a Raven BS rat in one particular mission. At range it tooks 4 reloads to kill it, at point blank it was dead before the first reload.
Loved using that mission to explain my fitting an AB on a mission Raven back then.
stoicfaux
#10 - 2013-07-29 18:13:39 UTC
Sweet Space Jesus, NPC defenders are weird! I'm still doing more tests, but man...

15,000 m/s Missile Testing Interim Summary:
Tengu with one HM launcher firing 15.5km/s missiles at a Core Rear Admiral (24% chance of defender launch.)
NPC Defenders seem to be 100% ineffective at long range.
At normal ranges, they seem to be less effective than expected.

Notes:
At long range (70km and 100km tests,) defenders always did their crazy "I missed" aimless flying dance. I did see two defenders in the air at once, so there's no apparent cycle limit on defender launches.

At long range, there were two missiles "in the air" at a time, so I was concerned that the Defenders were crazy because they were being launched against a the second missile in the air, while then trying to track the first (closer) incoming missile (or vice versa.) I'm pretty sure I saw defenders being launched against the last missile fired from the launcher. Plus, I fired manually at long range to ensure that there weren't multiple missiles in the air for the defenders to react against. They still did their crazy dance.


70km Orbit the NPC:
* 160 missile hits out of 160 hit.

100km Orbit the NPC:
* 160 missles out of 160 hit.

70km Keep at Range:
* 160 missiles out of 160 hit.

70km Keep at Range, but fired manually to ensure that only one missile was "in the air" at once:
* 80 missiles out of 80 hit.

37.5km, stationary (NPC was orbiting me)
* 142 missiles out of 160 hit. 11% loss to defenders.

37.km Orbit the NPC:
* 152 missiles out of 160 hit. 5% loss to defenders

Orbit beacon at 1km at 120m/s: (slowly orbited the warp-in beacon while the NPC tried to orbit me at 37.5km)
* 137 missiles out 160 hit. 14% loss to defenders
I was curious to see if movement had an effect.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Over?
Tentatively guessing, maybe defender intercept checks are hard-coded to a certain distance/time_to_impact in order to reduce computational overhead on the server? The defender crazy dance lasted a while, so they definitely had the time/range to intercept a missile streaking in from 70 to 100km.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-29 18:20:17 UTC
I guess defenders have a max velocity too and if its slower than your missiles they'll never hit?
stoicfaux
#12 - 2013-07-29 18:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I guess defenders have a max velocity too and if its slower than your missiles they'll never hit?

Short answer: No. Velocity doesn't matter if the missiles are heading directly towards each other.

Long answer: Yes. The server calculates positions once a second. Often I could see the missile "hiccup" as it traveled, as if it was pausing for an update from the server for the current second. So yes, the 15.5 km missile could be fast enough that the defender's position and missile's position never quite land on the same second. Or something.


At this point, we would need to look at the source code. Let me see who I still know in Russia. ;-)

edit: Another thing, the defender crazy "I miss" dance happened right after launching, and waaaaaaaaaaaaay before the missile ever got close to the ship.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#13 - 2013-07-29 20:15:55 UTC
I just remember something Liang posted years ago in a cnr vs golem thread about a 2 hbt II golem being effectively immune to defenders and that *might* put it on par with a cnr.

I've been meaning to pay attention to it in game, but lately every time I've flown a cnr or golem I've just been using auto-targeting missiles and not paying much attention to that account and more to another account running a gun ship. I will say auto-targeting aggro rules are about as wtf as the defender logic.

and it also might have something to do with high speed breaking the physics engine, something someone mentioned back around the nano nerf.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-07-30 00:44:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I guess defenders have a max velocity too and if its slower than your missiles they'll never hit?

Short answer: No. Velocity doesn't matter if the missiles are heading directly towards each other.

Long answer: Yes. The server calculates positions once a second. Often I could see the missile "hiccup" as it traveled, as if it was pausing for an update from the server for the current second. So yes, the 15.5 km missile could be fast enough that the defender's position and missile's position never quite land on the same second. Or something.


At this point, we would need to look at the source code. Let me see who I still know in Russia. ;-)

edit: Another thing, the defender crazy "I miss" dance happened right after launching, and waaaaaaaaaaaaay before the missile ever got close to the ship.

my semi-educated guess would be that just like other missiles, defenders have an implicit max range. when they are launched against a missile fired from outside that range, they go crazy by default.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Wizlawz
Pro Synergy
#15 - 2013-08-01 16:55:24 UTC
a pilot linked me this thread. and it gave me a thought....

and cant see defenders because of graphics change .... i wonder (idk if this has ever been tested) would running smart bombs take care of incoming missiles as well in conjunction with Defenders?
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-08-02 18:15:37 UTC
Wizlawz wrote:
a pilot linked me this thread. and it gave me a thought....

and cant see defenders because of graphics change .... i wonder (idk if this has ever been tested) would running smart bombs take care of incoming missiles as well in conjunction with Defenders?


For a single shot or something like that, it can work but volley after volley of missile, you would cap yourself out. You also have a pretty short range where it will work. At all V skills, you can get a somewhat short range of 10,5 km (under a second of flight time for some missile) at the cost of 17,3 cap/s. Those number are with large Draclira's and Chelm's EMP bombs so it's a huge chunk of change I guess too.

6-10 billion ISK for debatable utility at best...
Zaxix
Long Jump.
#17 - 2013-08-02 18:29:31 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
[quote=stoicfaux]my semi-educated guess would be that just like other missiles, defenders have an implicit max range. when they are launched against a missile fired from outside that range, they go crazy by default.

At some point, there was a "firewall" fleet doctrine that did exactly that. A wall of ships with smart bombs to take out missiles.

here's some random link i found. You can search for more I'm sure

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=70996

Bokononist

 

Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-09-08 17:31:53 UTC
Question i have is do other ship types fire defenders? like cruisers and BC? if so, are they only effective for killing heavy missiles or also cruise missiles?
Kaeden Dourhand
Pagids Legion
#19 - 2013-11-24 18:50:15 UTC
I have been on a quest for a few hours now to try and find out how defender missiles work in PvE and what can be done to countered them, not aided by the fact there's a lot of old information out there and it is scattered all over the place.

Thank you for your informative post, it has cleared a lot of my final questions.

One question remains though; some sources indicate that defender missiles do not effect torpedos because torpedos have hgher hp than the defender missiles do damage. Has this ever been tested, and does it hold true for launcher groups, and/or individual missiles?

Since I am debating flying a golem, I would like to know. Losing a missile per salvo is a much bigger deal there compared to other ships, since every missile counts as two.
stoicfaux
#20 - 2013-11-24 23:41:43 UTC
Kaeden Dourhand wrote:


One question remains though; some sources indicate that defender missiles do not effect torpedos because torpedos have hgher hp than the defender missiles do damage. Has this ever been tested, and does it hold true for launcher groups, and/or individual missiles?

Since I am debating flying a golem, I would like to know. Losing a missile per salvo is a much bigger deal there compared to other ships, since every missile counts as two.

NPC defenders do not take out torpedoes.[1] See post #26 http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1369392&page=1#26


[1] IIRC, I checked the old NPC statistics and none of them had a 4.x missile damage multiplier, so I'm 99% sure that NPC defenders won't ever kill a torpedo.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

12Next page