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Racial ECM jams racial sensor ONLY, not off racials

Author
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1 - 2013-07-08 23:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
OK. So, one way to reduce the "Over Powered" elements of ECM without totally redoing the whole system has come up in a recent discussion with a friend. This is a really simple fix that can be done without too much tinkering on the system. Fits with a broader philosophical backbone going on with modules recently, and more importantly, would make the decision on what modules you fit for ECM much more important.

The principle of the idea is :::
RADAR should ONLY have Radar Jam strength. No Chance of LADAR/Grav/Mag chances at all without a Multi-Spectral Jammer.
Same for the rest respectively.

Looking at something that CCP Greyscale has said recently is :: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2530257#post2530257

Quote:
We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. In this particular case, it was making the decision to take an active hardener over a passive one easier than it otherwise would be, which isn't a particularly good thing.


If active hardeners don't give a passive resist bonus because it makes them multi-function (a pretty weak case, IMHO), then ECM modules should jam ONLY ONE SENSOR JAM TYPE.

This change would dramatically rebalance the decision making of ECM on the field. It would make Multi-specs more popular, but they come with a shorter range and increased cap usage which is why they are rarely used today. The reality is even 1/3 of a chance that you get with a racial jammer against non-racial sensors is TOO POWERFUL and gives enough of a chance of success that you are comfortable going into a fight with the wrong racials because you don't have a horribly unreasonable chance of success with bonused ECM ships.

Hope this is heard by the devs. Cheers.

Where I am.

Sobkilla
050 Holdings
#2 - 2013-07-08 23:26:02 UTC
i like it :)
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#3 - 2013-07-08 23:55:07 UTC
I highly dislike ecm but this is a bad idea.
People will just fit multispectrals all the way since fitting racials will render the modules useless to 3/4 of ships.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#4 - 2013-07-09 05:29:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Arya Regnar wrote:
I highly dislike ecm but this is a bad idea.
People will just fit multispectrals all the way since fitting racials will render the modules useless to 3/4 of ships.


That's fine. They have penalties which offset their capabilities. If you know you're facing a certain target, then you can fit the correct racials. Or you just spread one of each racial, and a couple multispectrals. And then you don't have 7 reliable jammers, you have 3 (2 multis+1 racial). If you go full Multispecs, you deal with shorter range, less effective jams on average, and higher cap usage.

Where I am.

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#5 - 2013-07-09 05:38:47 UTC
Good suggestion, +1

ECM drones should be split into racials as well.

.

Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#6 - 2013-07-09 06:07:30 UTC
Show us on the doll where the evil Falcon touched you.

Oh.... Quoting CCP Greyscale. That my dear friend is rich. I would rather die than quote the man who wanted to balance titans around them having the best officer fit isk can buy for them to be effective. The only thing I want CCP Greyscale balancing is... Yeah I got nothin'.

Also, there is nothing wrong with ECM. It is fair and balanced. It is the only chance based Ewar. It's effectiveness only lasts for so long. Try being damped (no chance to miss and it's effectiveness doesn't end) in to oblivion by a Maulus, Keres, or Celestis and come crying to me when you think that is better than ECM. There is a reason the CFC is using damps over jams. They get the effectiveness and the ships can still tank. All the ECM boats don't get much beyond a tissue paper tank.

In all honesty the issue isn't that you are jammed. That is the part that is working as intended. The issue is ECM's poor scaling from small to large gang warfare. The smaller the level the more effective it is. The larger the level the less effective it is. Fix this so ECM scales smoothly and all your problems will go away.

tl;dr: No. This is a solution looking for a problem.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#7 - 2013-07-09 11:05:44 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

If active hardeners don't give a passive resist bonus because it makes them multi-function (a pretty weak case, IMHO), then ECM modules should jam ONLY ONE SENSOR JAM TYPE. .



I can play this game too....


so where is your proposal to remove scrams from game or broken up into 2 mods. They both nullify mwd and disable the ability to warp. 2 functions, 1 device....sounds multifunctional to me. How about you?


Better yet where is your idea to have racial scram, rracial points , acial web, racial damps and racial painters. Why should 1 point work on all ships. They are different navigation computers they affect.=...lets make em different points to be a matching set.





Also how is it that hard to train the f'ing sensor skills. If a falcon/scorp pilot uses the wrong racial jam on you and it works....its not op game mechanics. Its jsut the RNG gods really hate you. This is why I wish pen and paper games did not fall out of favor with the young geeks. Sometimes the d20's are nice to you....sometimes they are very mean to you. Thats RNG life. Roll better the next time and suck it up. Even boosted the base strength of an ecm on an off race is weaksauce.

This is why multspecs are not used. They are stronger than off racials....but still weak. Well at least not the officers ones. Its not cap...scorp and falcon have no cap issues unless doing something exotic. Me back in the day with scorps 2 utilites high ran a hull and armour RR. run them and yes...I did have cap issues (that I fixed with cap injectors ofc).. No RR running...cap for days.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#8 - 2013-07-09 12:22:50 UTC
If you have such issues about ECM, you clearly have not run into someone who is good at sensor damps. It's much, much worse. Less effective counters to it too, and it never misses.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#9 - 2013-07-09 13:08:58 UTC
There currently is a tradeoff by using racials because a multispec jammer has more jam strength then an off strength racial jammer. If they were to eliminate the off racial jams, you would need to increase the jam strength for the race. Also possibly buff the range of the multispecs to equal the racial jammer as well. To get a successful jam on an off racial jammer happens in that moment when you realize that if it doesn't work, your going to die. When jams fail on an ECM boat, you die.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#10 - 2013-07-09 13:47:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Zan Shiro wrote:

This is why multspecs are not used. They are stronger than off racials....but still weak. Well at least not the officers ones. Its not cap...scorp and falcon have no cap issues unless doing something exotic. Me back in the day with scorps 2 utilites high ran a hull and armour RR. run them and yes...I did have cap issues (that I fixed with cap injectors ofc).. No RR running...cap for days.


If that was true, then people wouldn't use off racials on non racial targets anyways, because they are weaker than Multi-specs. But they do anyways.

Hence, the issue is that Off-racials work too well and overshadow multi-spectrals, and THUS the multi-racial jamming quality of Racial Jammers makes Multi-spectrals obsolete because DESPITE BEING WEAKER AT IT, they are sufficiently effective at it to get by, because with Jammers it does not matter what your jam strength is, just that you have enough jammers to "slam" a target with until you have successes. The evidence in this lies with EC-300s which you don't need a 10 jam strength, you just need 20 ECM-300s and you can constantly jam out a target.

Thus, for multi-specs to be useful again, and for racials to not be so good at doing EVERYTHING like they currently are, they should be fixed.

Again, what will happen is instead of having 5 jammers that are effective at EVERYTHING regardless of their type, you would roll out with 2 multispectrals + 3 racial jammers so you have in total 3 chances of success at jamming a racial ship type instead of 5 chances.

Math is good.

Where I am.

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#11 - 2013-07-09 15:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Bloodpetal wrote:

Looking at something that CCP Greyscale has said recently is :: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2530257#post2530257

Nice try, but you failed to understand the definition of multi-function modules: those that give bonuses while not-active and giving more or other bonuses while active. ECM modules give nothing while they are not active and thus are not subject for linked quote. CCP has dealt with active hardeners being milti-function already and there are not many modules left, only auto-targeter comes to mind. Another one would be MWD with its cap penalty, but you can think of it as fitting requirement.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#12 - 2013-07-09 15:39:59 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

Looking at something that CCP Greyscale has said recently is :: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2530257#post2530257

Nice try, but you failed to understand the definition of multi-function modules: those that give bonuses while not-active and giving more or other bonuses while active. ECM modules give nothing while they are not active and thus are not subject for linked quote. CCP has dealt with active hardeners being milti-function already and there are not many modules left, only auto-targeter comes to mind. Another one would be MWD with its cap penalty, but you can think of it as fitting requirement.


Considering a cap penalty for an MWD as "multi-function" is laughable.

Where I am.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-07-09 16:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
This is a ******** idea of a ********.

Ecm is already way too weak.
Then why not change weapons aswell , you can only kill amarr ships with projectile guns. If you want to be able to kill other ships fit other weapons.

ps: why do these stupid ideas always come from low sec noobs?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#14 - 2013-07-09 16:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Naomi Knight wrote:
This is a ******** idea of a ********.

Ecm is already way too weak.
Then why not change weapons aswell , you can only kill amarr ships with projectile guns. If you want to be able to kill other ships fit other weapons.

ps: why do these stupid ideas always come from low sec noobs?


ECM being too weak is even more laughable than saying MWD's multi-function is to reduce your capacitor.

An ALGOS jammed me and another friendly for 8 cycles in a row. Not even a blackbird. And you're calling it weak. Funny stuff.

Where I am.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-07-09 16:52:26 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
This is a ******** idea of a ********.

Ecm is already way too weak.
Then why not change weapons aswell , you can only kill amarr ships with projectile guns. If you want to be able to kill other ships fit other weapons.

ps: why do these stupid ideas always come from low sec noobs?


ECM being too weak is even more laughable than saying MWD's multi-function is to reduce your capacitor.

An ALGOS jammed me and another friendly for 8 cycles in a row. Not even a blackbird. And you're calling it weak. Funny stuff.

yes ecm is weak , oh wait he knew what ships you were in so could refit to counter them hmm , why didnt you dock and counter fit then? you were outplayed thats all ,ecm has nothing to do with it
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#16 - 2013-07-09 16:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Naomi Knight wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
This is a ******** idea of a ********.

Ecm is already way too weak.
Then why not change weapons aswell , you can only kill amarr ships with projectile guns. If you want to be able to kill other ships fit other weapons.

ps: why do these stupid ideas always come from low sec noobs?


ECM being too weak is even more laughable than saying MWD's multi-function is to reduce your capacitor.

An ALGOS jammed me and another friendly for 8 cycles in a row. Not even a blackbird. And you're calling it weak. Funny stuff.

yes ecm is weak , oh wait he knew what ships you were in so could refit to counter them hmm , why didnt you dock and counter fit then? you were outplayed thats all ,ecm has nothing to do with it


Not really. It was a 3 way fight. They were fighting an Amarr fleet of Thorax's and Augorors. And we crashed the party with 2 Scorpions, and a kitchen sink fleet to whore on them all. The Algos was still getting jams on a Cyclone.

You're so awesome at pretending to know nothing.

Where I am.

Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-07-09 17:10:35 UTC
OP why is it that every time you lose to something that you can't figure out how to deal with you come to F&I demanding it be removed?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#18 - 2013-07-09 19:22:27 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
OP why is it that every time you lose to something that you can't figure out how to deal with you come to F&I demanding it be removed?


How'd those kill rights work out on your Rattlesnake loss? Lol

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11962682

Where I am.

Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-07-09 19:35:51 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
OP why is it that every time you lose to something that you can't figure out how to deal with you come to F&I demanding it be removed?


How'd those kill rights work out on your Rattlesnake loss? Lol

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11962682

Better than you apparent inability to deal with ECM.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#20 - 2013-07-09 20:57:57 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
OP why is it that every time you lose to something that you can't figure out how to deal with you come to F&I demanding it be removed?


How'd those kill rights work out on your Rattlesnake loss? Lol

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11962682

Better than you apparent inability to deal with ECM.



I heard Hatful say on your voice comms that this was your alt's freighter that we ambushed and killed? Ah, the good old days. Thanks for bringing back the memories.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11914405

Where I am.

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