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tech I hybrid ammo boost

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Author
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1 - 2013-06-01 15:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
From my exeriance the only tech I ammo ever used is anti mater due to its damage and the rest are just not used out side of niche pvp and pve scenarios

i think hybrid ammo deserves a boost and provide interesting options for different ammo types.

so here is my idea:

First thing we do is to swtich the ammo to 3 base ranges -50% 0% and 60%

i would then devide the ammo damage types between 3 for 80% thermal damange and 20% kin and 3 for 80% kin and 20% therm and then two for 50/50 split of damage types.

so antimater and Iridium will both do 50/50 split kin/thermal damage and instead of a cap reduction bonus they get a damage bonus

then you have Plutonium, Thorium and Tungsten doing 80/20 thermal/kin damage and instead of a cap reduction bonus they get a tracking bonus

then you have Uranium, lead , and Iron being 80/20 kin/thermal and instead of a cap reduction bonus they get a rate of fire bonus.


so here is a bigger break down: i use large ammo as example:

close range ammo:

antimater:
24 kin damage 24 thermal damage
-25% to optimal range
-25% to falloff
0% to cap activation cost
0% increase in damage multiplier

Plutonium:
32 thermal damage 8 kin damage
0% increase in tracking
-50% to optimal range
0% to cap activation cost

Uranium:
32 kin damage 8 thermal damage
0% increase in rate of fire
-50% to falloff
0% to cap activation cost

mid range ammo:


Thorium:
28.8 thermal damage 7.2 kin damage
10% bonus in tracking
-30% to cap activation cost
-12.5% to optimal range
+12.5% to falloff

lead:
28.8 kin damage and 7.2 thermal damage
10% bonus in rate of fire
-30% to cap activation cost
+12.5% to optimal range
-12.5% to falloff

long range ammo:

Iridium:
12 kin damage, 12 thermal damage
5% increase in damage multiplier
-25% to cap activation cost
37.5% increase in optimal range
37.5% increase in falloff

Tungsten:
19.2 thermal damage, 4.8 kin damage
5% increase in tracking
-25% to cap activation cost
25% increase in optimal range
50% increase in falloff

iron:
19.2 kin damage, 4.8 thermal damage
5% increase in rate of fire
-25% to cap activation cost
50% increase in optimal range
25% increase in falloff


this would make tech i and faction hybrid ammo really interesting you have to choose from either high burst ammo high tracking ammo or high dps ammo.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Grandma Squirel
#2 - 2013-06-01 15:38:44 UTC
Some of the mid range ammo is popular for long range pvp. The max range ammo sacrifices too much damage, and gives more range then anyone really wants.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-06-01 15:50:59 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Some of the mid range ammo is popular for long range pvp. The max range ammo sacrifices too much damage, and gives more range then anyone really wants.



Because long range ammo is really really bad and as you perfectly state it it's done for distances no one will use it because mid range ammo and some scripts can do the same with higher dps.

Most used hybrid T1 ammo is AM and Thorium with a negligible range malus but a very decent dps for a reasonable distance.

When it comes to T2 guns and Rails there's not much of valuable options: Faction AM still offers an excellent range and dmg, spike for long distances because optimal is really huge and has good dmg application, javelin makes your Railguns track like blasters and hard hitting but not much versatility of use unlike AM.

In the end and after this pointless point of view, pretty much agree with OP. Hybrid ammo needs to get rid of those capacitor crap thing and changed to lesser varieties that are only good to pollute DB with useless stuff.
Ships bonus changes like Gallente ones from dmg to ROF will require this more than ever and would certainly help a bit for Caldari hybrids ships.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#4 - 2013-06-01 16:44:55 UTC
examples where i would use different ammo now

before for mega/hyperion/talos i would use navy am or null

now i would use if using blasters would be:

mega: Uranium to go with the rate of fire bonus

hyperion: antimater to go with the damage bonus

talos: Plutonium to go with the tracking bonus.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#5 - 2013-06-01 19:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Felsusguy
I was going to support this, but hybrid turrets are supposed to do equal parts thermal and kinetic damage (that doesn't happen now, but only because kinetic damage is slightly larger for most ammo), and the capacitor thing would be going too far. Honestly, if I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to make hybrid turrets into projectile turrets.

Edit: And honestly, when does rate of fire become more important than DPS?

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-06-01 19:30:45 UTC
Keep your filthy paws off my DG iron charges...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#7 - 2013-06-01 22:28:14 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
I was going to support this, but hybrid turrets are supposed to do equal parts thermal and kinetic damage (that doesn't happen now, but only because kinetic damage is slightly larger for most ammo), and the capacitor thing would be going too far. Honestly, if I didn't know better, I would think you are trying to make hybrid turrets into projectile turrets.

Edit: And honestly, when does rate of fire become more important than DPS?


i am calling troll here just because of the edit...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

To mare
Advanced Technology
#8 - 2013-06-02 00:33:29 UTC
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#9 - 2013-06-02 07:06:31 UTC
As much as I'd love the ability to have different damage types with Hybrid's, the entire point of why we don't is we have the highest damage weapons. Yes, Arty's are higher Alpha, Torps have farther Range and everyone else gets different ammo types but really who cares. Blasters simply melt face, have higher tracking to apply that dmg better, and our ammo tends to be of the cheapest, next to Proj rounds.

Personally I think there is too much of a selection of ammo for Hybrid. I'd be much better with lowest range - AM, (1-2) mid ranged - Thorium/Lead, and longest range - Iron. That'd streamline it a little and make it less confusing for newer players.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#10 - 2013-06-03 17:56:01 UTC
To mare wrote:
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough


for antimatter and tech II ammo i have to agree... problem is there are lots of other ammo types and they should also melt face...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#11 - 2013-06-03 18:06:23 UTC
To mare wrote:
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough


Do keep in mind that hybrid ammunition is shared with Rail Guns as well, and they suffer from middling tracking and DPS, and excel in range.

I think it's nice to have a variety of ammunition, though I do agree that a large portion of it isn't touched and could use some small buffs. But it's something to be careful about because probably a large amount of the reason those ammo types aren't used is because of engagement ranges. If most of your fights occur with you sitting on top of your enemy, there's no reason not to use Antimatter.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2013-06-04 01:16:50 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
To mare wrote:
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough


Do keep in mind that hybrid ammunition is shared with Rail Guns as well, and they suffer from middling tracking and DPS, and excel in range.

I think it's nice to have a variety of ammunition, though I do agree that a large portion of it isn't touched and could use some small buffs. But it's something to be careful about because probably a large amount of the reason those ammo types aren't used is because of engagement ranges. If most of your fights occur with you sitting on top of your enemy, there's no reason not to use Antimatter.


^

Both the mid and long range ammo types get used extensively in railgun ships

I have flown a couple of those so i know.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

To mare
Advanced Technology
#13 - 2013-06-04 09:45:58 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
To mare wrote:
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough


Do keep in mind that hybrid ammunition is shared with Rail Guns as well, and they suffer from middling tracking and DPS, and excel in range.

I think it's nice to have a variety of ammunition, though I do agree that a large portion of it isn't touched and could use some small buffs. But it's something to be careful about because probably a large amount of the reason those ammo types aren't used is because of engagement ranges. If most of your fights occur with you sitting on top of your enemy, there's no reason not to use Antimatter.


buffing the ammo to make railguns better would make blaster who use the same ammo OP
if railgun need a boost buff the weapon not the ammo
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#14 - 2013-06-04 12:04:12 UTC
To mare wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
To mare wrote:
i can understand having some kind of different damage patterns but hybrids really dont need a dps or tracking boost to their ammo, they melt faces already well enough


Do keep in mind that hybrid ammunition is shared with Rail Guns as well, and they suffer from middling tracking and DPS, and excel in range.

I think it's nice to have a variety of ammunition, though I do agree that a large portion of it isn't touched and could use some small buffs. But it's something to be careful about because probably a large amount of the reason those ammo types aren't used is because of engagement ranges. If most of your fights occur with you sitting on top of your enemy, there's no reason not to use Antimatter.


buffing the ammo to make railguns better would make blaster who use the same ammo OP
if railgun need a boost buff the weapon not the ammo


Not if you are cleaver about the bonuses...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#15 - 2013-06-04 12:13:30 UTC
The scaling of ranges is useful for railguns. It allow you to pick the right ammo for your fit, to shoot at the range you want to be. Even the high range low dps ammo allow to keep tracking as opposed to spike, so you can still track your target when she is moving, because spike tracking is really garbage.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#16 - 2013-06-04 12:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I just checked ammo on SiSi since it's up right now.

It seems that all hybrid ammo is skewed slightly in favor of kin.

Perhaps what would be good is to equalize all the hybrid ammo to do a perfect 50/50 split of kin/therm like someone above me suggested, and then put something on the turrets themselves to skew the damage towards therm for blasters and towards kin for rails. For example, something where a blaster would reduce kin damage by 25% and then increase therm by 25%. It wouldn't be a weapon bonus, just a weapon property and it would be static.

Alternately, if people are worried about bonuses and such, just have the ammo do too much combined kin/therm damage and let the turret reduce the off-racial damage to a point where the overall yield is where it should be. Such that if you want a round of Antimatter to have 75 points of damage spread between kin/therm, you give it 100 points (50 in each) and then have the turret penalize the off-racial damage by 50%, reducing one to 25 points and the total becoming the desired 75.

Maybe it's a terrible idea. It's just a thought I had for how to racially-flavor hybrids and introduce a little variation in available damage type output. OP does indeed seem to be pulling a "let's make hybrids like projectiles" without realizing that it only works with projectiles because of all the different damage profiles available.

That being said, there's still no mid-range projectile ammo that deals EM and that does bug me a little..
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#17 - 2013-06-04 15:03:07 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
OP does indeed seem to be pulling a "let's make hybrids like projectiles" without realizing that it only works with projectiles because of all the different damage profiles available.
..


they way i look at it is hybrid is like its name says a hybrid between projectile and energy based weapon system.

i fully understand that for the projectiles get thier versatility threw damage selection. but i also think hybrid should get thier versatility threw thier ammo but not by damage selection but threw options in damage application.

so if you want good tracking you have good tracking ammo. if you want high dps you have dps ammo. if you are looking for burst damage then you have high damage ammo.

its all about selection.

Moreover even though the gal and caldari use the same weapon system they should use it in different styles. So some ammo should have a gal flavour i.e being more thermal and some ammo should be more caldari being more kin. then there would be two split ammos that are used by each race.

So if you look at my changes you see gal ammo getting fall off increase and tracking bonus. and caldari get optimal range bonus and rate of fire... then the split damage gets a burst bonus to give hybrids the option to go alpha (but still much lower then arties)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Callic Veratar
#18 - 2013-06-12 18:10:47 UTC
I would go a step further in hybrid weapons. Rather than just rebalancing the ammo to follow projectile ammo, split the ammo into two classes:

Iron, Lead, Thorium, and Tungsten Slugs and Antimatter, Iridium, Plutonium, and Uranium Charges.

The slugs are paired with rail guns and a new short range kinetic weapon (possibly modelled after a shotgun, where target sig matters in damage dealt as well as range and tracking with extreme damage but super low RoF.) On top, 4 new slugs are introduced that have varied damage profiles: mainly kinetic but paired with thermal, EM, and explosive like projectiles.

The charges are paired with blasters and a new long range thermal weapon (possibly entirely falloff range much more than ACs, high RoF, good damage, significant cap use). With this 4 new charges are also introduced with varied ranges and damage: mainly thermal paired with either EM or explosive.

As a side effect, Caldari and Gallente each get a dedicated class of turret weapons. Follow what happened with Destroyer/Battlecruiser for skills. The S/M/L turret skills are split into two and the specializations are renamed. New specs for the new weapons can be back filled. This might go well with a weapon skill simplification so you can train large T2 guns without doing small and medium T2 first.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#19 - 2013-06-12 21:06:31 UTC
blasters = antimatter, null, void
railguns.= all ammo types, depending on range, tracking
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#20 - 2013-06-12 21:24:16 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
The history of hybrids, gallente and caldari is a history full of misunderstandings.

The problem with hybrids is scaling and proper use of ship bonuses to modify weapon behaviour for different propose on different hulls(gallente/caldari). The current state of hybrids is a endless sting of bad design decisions since 2008, where blasters are bad instead of awesome at point blank, players think blasters are like acs(while they actually did mimic lasers, utilizing ammo and web/sig dynamics to massively outdo them at limited range windows or optimal bonuses to mimic them at less range with better tracking), caldari receive damage bonuses instead making the optimal bonuses more useful and gallente hulls get buffed in fitting to a point where everything can be fitted without any effort. This is the result of years of bad design and band aids, because nobody addresses the core flaws of the weapon system and the idea behind the hulls.

- a blaster fitted gallente hull is terrible at point blank(full stop) it can not dictate range and utilize peak dps(because of the weaker web and scrams). A effective blaster ship, bigger than a frig needs a stronger web or being scram immune(mwd off effect, still pointed), making it able to dictate range at point blank even in X vs 1 engagements(since this is what you get in a blaster ship that comes with the "do or die" penalty if you engage at close range)
- a blaster fitted caldari hull is terrible, because the bonus doesn't scale well enough with the weapon to provide a more effective and different combat window than gallente and there is no real fitting concept, caldari hulls should be able to use the big blasters + tank with her lower effective turret count while forcing gallente to glass cannon + gank or smaller blasters + tank, by this you migrate the dps/optimal situation, however that only works with higher optimal bonuses on caldari hulls and the ability to do full dps with gallente hulls at point blank
- while the new mega is designed around a heavy tank and high rail dps, gallente hulls in general lack tracking with rails(rails got not enough tracking to be a good nano kite weapon, this is why medium rails suck, full stop)
- caldari hulls got not enough damage with rails outside of large rails(because they have 8 effective turrets here and can use high damage ammos at nearly every useful combat range). The problem of the ferox/moa is that they lack effective turrets to archive reasonable dps with rails. Eagle is just bad.

Hybrids are bad, because hybrid design is bad and it will only get better the day when people stop throwing bad ideas on it. Think about why gallente where useful at point blank, not because of a few more EHP and dps that they should not need to begin with, but because sig/web mechanics made them hit like a truck at this range, why a optimal bonus could be just as good but different compared to a damage bonus and why ccp put a falloff bonus on some gallente hulls(the reason for this was to not outdo caldari hulls for sniping, it is not good, it is terrible and doesn't suit a weapon that is used at point blank or long range, in both cases at optimal, not in falloff).

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

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