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Amarr desperately needs new crystals with other damage types

Author
To mare
Advanced Technology
#21 - 2013-05-21 10:55:14 UTC
i would really like to know how a laser can possibly deal KIN damage
Ziester
Inner Shadow
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#22 - 2013-05-21 11:06:38 UTC
Or you could just cross-train, and not too far either.
Through the years, as it's already been said every race has been granted what they were missing amongst gunships, missile platforms and drone boats, to the point that now it's fairly easy to cross-train another race.

Say you're Amarr. You have access to lasers and drones, and a couple missile ships.
Due to drone boats, you can easily train Gallente ships, and
Due to missile platforms, you can train Caldari ships, with a little bit more training though.

Regarding the ship's diversity, races are pretty equal and yet still specialized in their own way.
Last thing we need is every races being simiilar with just weapons visual effects being different.

In a more blunt way, if you want the ability to deal various damage types, train Caldari / Minmatar.
Mole Guy
Band of Builders Inc.
Silent Infinity
#23 - 2013-05-21 11:09:39 UTC
how the hell do u make light, passing through a crystal, do something other than heat and em?

we have the new geddon. it has drones AND torps/cruise. theres your damage selection

now, the only thing we as amarrians can do is change from em/thermal to thermal/em. more thermal damage as opposed to more em.
we can adopt the minie ranges and select the damage type. but as far as explosive or kinetic, forget it...we are doomed to em and therm. which, if u think about his, getting thermal cruise and explosive drones makes for a hard time to defend against. trying to tank normal races will not work in this case. so itll be a change.

but we do need to mix up em and thermal.
Shimrod Ombreflamme
LOOK TO WINDWARD
#24 - 2013-05-21 11:52:50 UTC
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#25 - 2013-05-21 12:05:53 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?

Truth is limited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestimated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways.

OP has already uttered doubt as to the value/viability of her initial suggestion so don't fret, we laser wielders got it covered. Smile

On projectiles: T2 ammo is indeed fairly unforgiving by favouring EXP/Kin but in T1 only two out of eight have a triple damage type, namely EMP and DU so is about as adaptive as can be, especially when lower base damage = range and/or tracking .. to further increase adaptability projectiles were given three high damage/low range options with nearly pure type selection, EMP (75% EM), Fusion (83% EXP) and Phased Plasma (83% Therm).
CCP did an uncommonly thorough job when they revised projectile ammo, and if you place a 1-in-4 (the triple types) in the often category then you need to go elsewhere when shopping because you are missing out on what projectiles have to offer.

Did the legwork using current numbers
New and improved;
T2 crystals as is.
Heatsink RoF modifier changed to damage ditto, for T2 make it 22.5% damage which is 0.4% dps decrease .. small (maybe too small) price to pay.

Multifrequency: 36 EM, 12 TH. -50% optimal range.
Gamma: 36 TH, 12 EM. -50% optimal range.

Xray: 24 EM, 12 TH. +20% tracking.
Ultraviolet: 24 TH, 12 EM. +20% tracking.

Standard: 24 EM, 12 TH. 25% reduced capacitor need (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)
Infrared: 24 TH, 12 EM. 25% reduced capacitor need. (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)

Microwave: 15 TH, 5 EM. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.
Radio: 15 EM, 5 TH. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.

Four groups each both EM and Thermal represented, divided into three range bands with the middle having twin flavours of tracking and sustainability.

0wl
Pocket Pirates
#26 - 2013-05-21 12:12:43 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.


You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced.


They dont start with 90% resists though.
Ix Method
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-05-21 12:18:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
The main thing to happen with crystals is give us a choice between EM heavy or Thermal heavy. While the T2 Crystals can (& I think are) semi balanced between the two.

This can be done easily by removing the 25% range steps... This then gives us 6 kinds of T1 Ammo, 2 at +50%/0/-50% which lets us choose EM or Therm heavy damage. Giving us a little flexibility, especially at long range where Amarr only do EM damage pretty much on the T1 crystals.

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.

Yes.

Travelling at the speed of love.

Galinius Valgani
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-05-21 12:37:38 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Did the legwork using current numbers
New and improved;
T2 crystals as is.
Heatsink RoF modifier changed to damage ditto, for T2 make it 22.5% damage which is 0.4% dps decrease .. small (maybe too small) price to pay.

Multifrequency: 36 EM, 12 TH. -50% optimal range.
Gamma: 36 TH, 12 EM. -50% optimal range.

Xray: 24 EM, 12 TH. +20% tracking.
Ultraviolet: 24 TH, 12 EM. +20% tracking.

Standard: 24 EM, 12 TH. 25% reduced capacitor need (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)
Infrared: 24 TH, 12 EM. 25% reduced capacitor need. (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)

Microwave: 15 TH, 5 EM. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.
Radio: 15 EM, 5 TH. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.

Four groups each both EM and Thermal represented, divided into three range bands with the middle having twin flavours of tracking and sustainability.




I do really like this Idea. :)
And for T2 there are so much more interesting Ideas than simply more damage( especially when considering that T1 damage is not that bad).
You could simply give T2 Ammo the possibility to absorb overheat damage. So its useful and needed in high amounts :D
You could choose to do 5% more Damage for using T2 or 20% more for X seconds...
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#29 - 2013-05-21 12:54:30 UTC
Galinius Valgani wrote:
...You could simply give T2 Ammo the possibility to absorb overheat damage. So its useful and needed in high amounts :D
You could choose to do 5% more Damage for using T2 or 20% more for X seconds...

I'd much rather inflict heat damage than reduce my own to be honest .. would be right up Conflags ally judging by its name Twisted
Caljiav Ocanon
The Holy Rollers
#30 - 2013-05-21 13:21:08 UTC
There probably should be EM/Therm and Therm/EM crystals. Makes sense to me anyway.

The other one is rail guns. Rail guns should do immense kinetic damage, more than any other ammo/gun system by far. The extreme velocity of a rail gun charge means it penetrates armor better than a larger, slower arty round. They should have higher alpha than arty.

Artillery comes in two forms, shot and shell. Depending on type it will either have a payload or be kinetic only. This payload can be anything from toxic gas to a small atomic weapon and only your imagination is the limit here.

What I would like to see is a rebalance of all the gun/ammo/missile types in game. Right now it's a mess. I know people don't like change but the way it's setup now is very unimaginative for a futuristic space game.
Phobeus Primae
Hard Shell
#31 - 2013-05-21 13:33:12 UTC
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.

Actually physics say yes.

According to famous E = mc2, mechanics and a fact, that super-massive blackholes bend the light (or even trap it inside due to significant gravity), the photons while carrying energy should have the mass. And having a mass plus velocity means kinetic energy. Now all we need is uber-advanced device which increases mass of photons.
Xeros Black
Forced Penetration
#32 - 2013-05-21 15:22:51 UTC
No to lasers having different damage types

Maybe to lasers having Therm/EM crystals instead of just EM/Therm crystals
RoAnnon
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2013-05-21 17:06:39 UTC
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.


If you're going to bring physics into it, let's look at the explosive damage type. Explosions are fiery, cause a shockwave and throw bits of debris about. Considering space is a vacuum, the shockwave is not going to be a factor. Which leaves us with essentially a combination of thermal damage from the blast, plus kinetic damage from the bits of shrapnel or whatever that are thrown out.

Explosive damage isn't really viable at all as a separate type.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

Grunnax Aurelius
Black Rams
The Nightingales of Hades
#34 - 2013-05-21 21:07:49 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?

Truth is lmited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestmated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways.


Just to reinforce what your saying.
Missiles and Projectiles also have 10 second reload times, whereas Hybrids have a 5 second reload time and Lasers 1 second.
Reasoning,
Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage types and are cap less weapons. 10 second reload
Hybrids are a fixed damage type, but because both damage types are good against both types of tank and have moderate cap usage. 5 second reload
Lasers have a damage type more towards fighting shield tankers, but have good ranges, good damage and high cap usage. 1 second reload

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Grunnax Aurelius
Black Rams
The Nightingales of Hades
#35 - 2013-05-21 22:05:40 UTC
0wl wrote:
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
0wl wrote:
I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.


You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced.


They dont start with 90% resists though.


You wana go down this road, fine!!!

Retribution: 80% Explosive and 62.5% Kinetic Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods
Vengeance: 85% Explosive and 71.9% Kinetic Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods
Jaguar: 75% EM and 60% Thermal Resistance (Shield) All 5 no mods
Wolf: 90% EM and 67.5% Thermal Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods

Seems fair to me!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Grunnax Aurelius
Black Rams
The Nightingales of Hades
#36 - 2013-05-21 22:10:50 UTC
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
There probably should be EM/Therm and Therm/EM crystals. Makes sense to me anyway.

The other one is rail guns. Rail guns should do immense kinetic damage, more than any other ammo/gun system by far. The extreme velocity of a rail gun charge means it penetrates armor better than a larger, slower arty round. They should have higher alpha than arty.

Artillery comes in two forms, shot and shell. Depending on type it will either have a payload or be kinetic only. This payload can be anything from toxic gas to a small atomic weapon and only your imagination is the limit here.

What I would like to see is a rebalance of all the gun/ammo/missile types in game. Right now it's a mess. I know people don't like change but the way it's setup now is very unimaginative for a futuristic space game.


Of this I approve, Railguns should do more RAW Kinetic Damage, either deal more damage than Artillery because of Physics, or some damage below them and add a Armour Penetration chance to bypass some armour and deal hull damage, because of Physics.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2013-05-21 23:34:12 UTC
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.

Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on.
So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time.
However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#38 - 2013-05-22 00:52:36 UTC
If drones were balanced so that all damage types were viable choices, this would not be an issue.

The EM/Th and TH/EM ammo design is excellent though. Crystals are already designed around this idea- unfortunately, some idiot spread the change out by range as well, and the long range damage penalty trumps any damage type selection. We really don't need 8 different range brackets, so doubling them up into 4 brackets with 2 EM/Th profiles is a great idea.
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#39 - 2013-05-22 07:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rented
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.

Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on.
So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time.
However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics.


Lasers applied in a burst can very rapidly ionize only a thin outer layer of a target surface into plasma, which immediately blasts back off the target, applying a kinetic impact.
Lai HasCake
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-05-22 07:37:16 UTC
Rented wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:
Physic says no.

Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.

So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.

Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on.
So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time.
However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics.


Lasers applied in a burst can very rapidly ionize only a thin outer layer of a target surface into plasma, which immediately blasts back off the target, applying a kinetic impact.


This isn't what happens in a vacuum and you can't state what would happen when they are absorbed by shields either.

Lasers don't need adjustment. Sure they have strengths and weaknesses but so does every system.
If you want to be able to deal different damage types you will have to put up with a 10 second reload time like missiles and projectiles.

And quit complaining you have Scorch.
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