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Is this an exploit: 'Magic' bubbles?

Author
ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-20 04:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShortTime ForumAlt
Video chronicle of this saga - http://youtu.be/TfAMw0dmsAA

If this didn't happen to me I wouldn't believe it was possible. So I don't really expect many of you will believe me right now, but this is true. I think that some CFC members, or maybe just one of them, are doing some sort of exploit with bubbles. I've been lucky, or stupid, enough to die twice to them and just yesterday got to watch someone else get killed. Really, really strange bubbles. I will try to explain in detail so this will be a long posting.

About eight months ago I lost a ship in Tribute to Substantia Nigra and some friends. At that time the CFC had pushed into the region and I think his alliance [GENTS] lived nearby in UMI-KK. The ship loss was very strange. I warped direct to the gate and dropped out of warp around 300km short of the gate but not in a bubble or even near a bubble. There were jetcans around me and a small fleet of waiting ships that quickly pointed, webbed, and killed me. I tried to warp my pod away but was unable to, and received the notification that you get when you try warp from inside a bubble. It was as if I had been caught by an invisible stop bubble 300km from the gate. I tried to convo my killers afterwards and only got to talk with Substantia Nigra who first said I must have desynced to not be able to see the bubble, but later mentioned a 'magic' bubble.

More recently, just a couple months ago, I was moving a different character from hisec into Vale in a combat ship. I had a cloaky scout running ahead and as I jumped my ship into IPAY-2 from P3EN-E, he jumped out the other end into EIDI-N. There were no bubbles visible near either the EIDI or P3 gate in IPAY and only one character in system. I warped directly to the EIDI gate. While I was in warp two characters appeared in local, one was Substantia Nigra, and I dropped out of warp 5,000 km short of the EIDI gate, right in the middle (yes the middle) of a large bubble. I could see a bubble this time and was surrounded by drones. Two ships arrived nearby shortly afterwards. In an instant I was multi webbed by a huginn and taking large drone damage from a gila. I had a decent tank but no AB or MWD and managed to kill all the gila's large drones but eventually died to the mediums that followed.

Having died twice to these guys, in two very strange but different bubble setups, I decided to keep an eye on them. I added the pair to all my watchlists, moved a scout to IPAY, and regularly checked where they were at using locator agents. Our hours didn't overlap much and they were only in IPAY and P3 for a few days after my latest loss. After that they were all over Vale, Tribute, Geminate, Kalevala, Malpais, and high sec near Jita. I kept my scout in IPAY and was rewarded yesterday when they returned to IPAY and setup up another very strange bubble camp.

I tried to watch them fairly closely and what they did just seems impossible to me. What they did the last two times also seems impossible to me, but this one was even stranger. I ran an all-nighter watching them and was finally rewarded with getting to watch a kill.

too much for one posting so more to come
ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-05-20 04:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShortTime ForumAlt
This time Substantia Nigra set a drag bubble up 1AU from the EIDI gate and somehow it caught traffic warping from the P3 gate. There were no bubbles visible from near the EIDI gate and, again, the warping ship landed right in the middle of the bubble, not at the edge. They did the same logoffski thing that I saw last time and they probably had a cloaky scout in P3 watching for traffic.
I got to see Substantia Nigra coming into IPAY in a prowler via jumpbridge, probably from C2X-M5 if my locator was fast enough. Then the prowler and a tech-2 large bubble were visible on scan in the direction of the EIDI gate but not the P3 gate. I used probes to get a fix and warp near to the ship and the bubble. They were 1AU from the EIDI gate in direct line with the P3 gate.

Initially I thought he was testing something in deep space but then he swapped to a arazu and warped directly into the middle of the bubble and dropped a bundle of drones there. I saw him do this a number of times, obviously from the P3 gate direction when he wasn't cloaked. Once he had around 50 tech-1 drones dropped near the middle of the bubble he left system again.

Then he reappeared in a huginn and Teg Mentum logged on and arrived in a gila. I watched Teg deploy some tech-2 sentries in the middle of the bubble, logoff and on again, and then retrieve the sentries (odd). Then the two of them took up perches around 50km above and below the bubble, and logged out.

I saw several people jump into IPAY from P3. Each time Substantia Nigra logged in around 10 seconds after and Teg Mentum a few seconds later. Each time I warped to a perch near their bubble and watched, and each time the other character disappeared from local a couple of minutes later. I had a convo with one of these and he used a perch near the EIDI gate. The only thing that kept me from giving up was the fact that they kept logging in for each visitor from P3. It seemed to me that they were expecting to somehow catch and kill someone in this bubble.

Hours later, after a prolonged period of them not logging on for visitors, a stealth bomber jumped in from P3 and cloaked near the gate. Again I warped to my perch, this time to see Substantia Nigra logging in to local while I was in warp, about 20 seconds after the hound had entered system. Substantia Nigra, in a huginn, landed at a perch above the bubble then Teg Mentum, in a gila, logged on and landed at a perch below. Soon after this the hound decloaked at the middle of the bubble. I did not see any announcement windows to show that the hound was being attacked but the ship was moving very slowly and the gila unleashed a flight of warrior IIs in its direction. The hound, and his pod, died quickly.

I tried to convo Substantia Nigra and Teg Mentum but was refused by both. I did manage to talk with the hound pilot. He confirmed that he warped direct to the EIDI gate after waiting cloaked for a while near the P3 gate and checking my details. He and I were the only people in system. He confirmed that he landed in the middle of the bubble and was decloaked by drones. He did notice how far the bubble was from the EIDI gate and agreed it was 1AU. Since we spoke he also let me know that he had petitioned the loss.

I did manage to film most of this story including the kill. This was my first effort with FRAPS so it is probably bad, and I got wife aggro (she woke to find me still going without having gone to bed) just as the victim arrived in IPAY. The files are huge and I haven't yet worked out how to make them into a movie that I can post on youtube. Once I have done that I will add a link here.

Until then I will not be surprised if nobody believes me, but I believe that Substantia Nigra is using some sort of exploit to make bubbles do strange things. I was killed in an invisible bubble one time, and another time a bubble that sat 5000km from the gate and stopped me right at its middle not the edge. I also observed a similar bubble in operation, but 1AU from the gate.

Am I nuts, or has anyone else seen similar elsewhere, or been killed by these guys in a similar way?
Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-20 04:29:26 UTC
TLDR
Aquila Sagitta
Black Dragon Elite
Rate My Ticks
#4 - 2013-05-20 06:42:39 UTC
How big were the systems you were in?
ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-05-20 07:05:28 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
How big were the systems you were in?


What difference would that make here?
Aquila Sagitta
Black Dragon Elite
Rate My Ticks
#6 - 2013-05-20 07:26:30 UTC
It might have something to do with the 'exploit'
Aquila Sagitta
Black Dragon Elite
Rate My Ticks
#7 - 2013-05-20 07:46:07 UTC
Ok I haven't figured out how your perps are doin this trick 1au from the gate as your story states... but I have replicated it in my wh Cool

I think this trick would fall under grid-fu.

This is what I did: (replace wh with gate)
1. Warped to wh. Aligned back to pos and burned off grid (~300 kms).
2. Dropped bubble off grid of wh.
3. This new grid squishes the wh grid down to ~120kms.
4. I dropped a bubble on the very edge of the wh grid so that the radius of the bubble extends into the next grid.
5. I then warped to the wh from my pos and landed offgrid of the wh what appeared to be empty grid save the first bubble that I dropped. And I dropped a third bubble where i landed. The second and third bubble in reality are probably like 5-6km from eachother but they are on 2 different grids.
6. Warp to wh again from pos and land in the middle of the third bubble.

What i understand happens here. The bubble on the wh grid will drag you like any normal bubble but you don't land on that grid since you land on the edge of that bubble. The edge of that bubble happens to be on a different grid because of how i positioned it giving you this 'magic' bubble effect. You land in an empty grid with no visual clue why warp was stopped early(or late).

The reason I landed in the middle of the third bubble and not on the edge is because that bubble isn't on the grid that I was initially warping to. So you still land on the edge of the bubble that is on grid with the wh which just happens to be right next to my third bubble.

The only way I can see these guys doing what you say they did is to expand the gate grid out to almost an AU away. Place a bubble on the very edge of the gate grid in line with other gate. Drop large bubble off grid of gate where you'd land in 'magic' bubble and drop decloaking garbage.

Cheers!
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-05-20 10:28:38 UTC
Julius Priscus
#9 - 2013-05-20 11:24:52 UTC
if you was flying a cloaked nullified t3 you would have not lost yet ships.

next time... warp to a celestial and scan...
Othran
Route One
#10 - 2013-05-20 12:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
snip explanation


Yeah you pretty much have it there. The 1AU stuff sounds like bullshit to me.

You can do all sorts of fun stuff at the edge of a grid (both sides) by popping bubbles. Takes bloody ages to setup but there's no exploit involved, you just need to know the centre of the grid and the range to the edges you are interested in (remember its 3d).
ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-05-20 15:15:00 UTC
Sounds reminiscent of the old "double stop bubble" trick, with some grid fu thrown in. I've seen people put a ton of effort into setting traps for no-risk PVP, and then spend a ton of time waiting for targets. I'm pretty sure these people are autistic.
Othran
Route One
#12 - 2013-05-20 15:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
I did something similar on a POS a while back.

Depending on how patient you are and the layout of POS/system you can actually place a bubble just off-grid which will catch people warping to the POS. By "just off grid" I mean well under 1km off-grid. The bubble will not be visible from the POS until someone lands in it, at which time it will become on-grid.

Someone else can explain the mechanics in detail but AIUI when someone warps onto grid they have a very brief effect on the grid dimensions* - they stretch the grid in the direction they're coming from is my assumption. If the bubble is close enough to the edge of the grid then as they warp in the bubble will become on-grid and they get caught in it.

Its something which takes time to setup but has its moments. Edit - probably works pretty well for JBs now that I come to think of it.

*we've all seen people appear/disappear/reappear as they warp into certain grids, even ones where grid-fu on its own wouldn't explain that.
ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-05-20 18:49:51 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Ok I haven't figured out how your perps are doin this trick 1au from the gate as your story states... but I have replicated it in my wh Cool


Wow. It will take me a while to work this out but it sort of makes sense.

I'll try and post the main movie segment of what I watched later today.
Soft Insanity
Intergalactic Space Papacy
The Bastion
#14 - 2013-05-20 19:16:27 UTC
I seriously doubt Subs used an exploit but I'll mention this thread to him and see. Since we live in the area we have time to set up bubbles and bounce points for all the major pipe systems and the ones you listed certainly qualify.

Thanks for stopping by GENTS space though! See you again soon o7
Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#15 - 2013-05-20 19:30:50 UTC
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#16 - 2013-05-20 19:52:28 UTC
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.


I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Othran
Route One
#17 - 2013-05-20 20:34:09 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.


I'm "pretty sure" no such thing has been said in the last 5 years with the exception of two instances, both of which were POS related and clearly taking the ****.

Grid-fu is one of these things that, if Eve was starting from scratch would be banned.

However that's not going to happen as it happens by accident much of the time - big fights on gates/stations leave enough crap behind to seriously distort grids.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#18 - 2013-05-20 20:47:11 UTC
You initiated warp while a light dictor bubble was up at your destination. the dictor probe exploded and the bubble went down, but because you initiated warp while it was up, you stopped where the edge of the bubble would have been.

It happens all the time. its not an exploit, its working as intended.

Not EVERYTHING the goons do is an exploit or a hack.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Beaver Retriever
Reality Sequence
#19 - 2013-05-20 22:03:16 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.


I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.

Grid fu has been used for half a decade without it ever being declared an 'exploit', stop shitposting.
Kirtar Makanen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2013-05-21 02:47:14 UTC
Othran wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.


I'm "pretty sure" no such thing has been said in the last 5 years with the exception of two instances, both of which were POS related and clearly taking the ****.

Grid-fu is one of these things that, if Eve was starting from scratch would be banned.

However that's not going to happen as it happens by accident much of the time - big fights on gates/stations leave enough crap behind to seriously distort grids.

If I'm thinking about one of the same instances, they were also in the presence of pre-Dominion sovereignty mechanics which was based around POSes.
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