These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Change to Turret Specializations

Author
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#1 - 2013-05-01 10:34:01 UTC
Does anybody know if/when CCP is going to change the skill structures for the Turret Specializations?

I fly mostly BC and BS. With low(ish) skills I'm currently using Meta 4 weapons. I looked into Large T2 weapons, but the skill structure for Turret Specializations are wrong imho. Yes, you do focus on Artillery vs AutoCannon, Beam Lasers vs Pulse Laser and Blasters vs Railguns, but the fact they you have to dump a lot of skill points in small and medium turrets ( lvl 5's) and small and medium Specializations (lvl 4's) to get to Large gun Specialization losses the concept of "Specialization".

The Missile specializations are much better. Cruise Missile Specialization only requires Cruise Missiles 5 and some Missille Launcher Operation skill.

Apparently CCP agrees that Specializations should not have a smaller sized Specializations as requirements. Devs have stated so in blogs and posts and CCP is going to cut the Assault Ships-> Heavy Assault Ships-> Field Command Ships and Logistics -> Fleet Command Ships and Covert Ops -> Recon Ships skill chains with the summer expansion
Cap James Tkirk
Capsuleer Outfitters
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2 - 2013-05-01 15:58:47 UTC
can you link the blog where they have said this about gunnery skills and not SHIP specialiazation
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2013-05-01 17:27:18 UTC

One of the main distinctions between skilling into t2 missiles vs t2 turrets is with missiles you don't need a whole tree of specialization skills to get to any particular missile spec.

I'm of mixed opinions on requiring medium spec skills to train large spec skills, etc... Quite often t2 ammo is pretty much essential to reap the benefits of various weapon systems, and the ability to skip the whole weapon-spec tree and focus on an individual weapon size spec would make training into specific ship types much quicker. I don't want insta-gratification style EvE, and I think people learn a ton by "progressing" through the various ship levels rather than insta-training to something like battleships..
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2013-05-01 17:34:36 UTC
Nagnor wrote:
Does anybody know if/when CCP is going to change the skill structures for the Turret Specializations?

Never heard of such a comment from CCP. CCP has commented that missiles and turrets are different, as well that missiles were never intended to be a primary weapon system; it just sort of happened.

Nagnor wrote:
Apparently CCP agrees that Specializations should not have a smaller sized Specializations as requirements. Devs have stated so in blogs and posts and CCP is going to cut the Assault Ships-> Heavy Assault Ships-> Field Command Ships and Logistics -> Fleet Command Ships and Covert Ops -> Recon Ships skill chains with the summer expansion

No, those prerequisites were changed because they were stupid. I suggest you re-read the blogs.
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
#5 - 2013-05-01 19:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nagnor
I've seen multiple references to this topic regarding long, unnecessary, illogical specialization trees, but the ones below were easy to find:

CCP Ytterbium in in the dev blog THE GREAT SHIP SKILL CHANGES OF SUMMER 2013:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Another point we are not fond of is the over-redundant training needed for specialization. Still looking at the tree above, some tech 2 ships require sets of skills that are not relevant to the hull you are specializing into. Notorious example is the Absolution, the Amarr Field Command Ship, with forces training of Heavy Assault Ships, itself demanding Assault Ships to be learned. While we are fine with time sinks, they should be related to the field you are specializing into and not push you into hulls you are not interested in.


CCP Ytterbium in this post from 2012.03.08
Quote:

  • Q: Training turret specialization requires you to go for small and medium skills first, are you considering changing this to make it consistent with this plan?

  • A: We haven’t considered this yet, but this definitely is something that needs to be extensively discussed indeed.

    More than 1 year down the line.

    @Gizznitt Malikite
    Indeed the T2 missiles is kind of how it should be. You train for the basic variant of the weapon along the different sizes and then you go sideways by specializing. There is no insta-gratification, because you would still have to train for lvl 5 of the basic weapon, the specialization skill and the corresponding secondary skill like Motion prediction and Sharpshooter. Just less because you are not doing the smaller specializations and be fair I'm not going to put Small T2 weapons on my Battleships for progression sake. I rather put the SP in different weapon systems and go different racial/pirate ships.

    I said for T2 missiles "kind of" because I think some levels of Warhead Upgrade, Guided Missile Precision and Missile Projection should be added to the resp. Fury/Rage, High Precision and Long range missiles
    Nagnor
    The Happy Shooters
    #6 - 2013-05-01 19:39:35 UTC
    Tau Cabalander wrote:
    Nagnor wrote:
    Does anybody know if/when CCP is going to change the skill structures for the Turret Specializations?

    Never heard of such a comment from CCP. CCP has commented that missiles and turrets are different, as well that missiles were never intended to be a primary weapon system; it just sort of happened.

    Please provide (recent) links, because that is just stupid. Why would CCP create a flexible, open game and then mandate that only turrets should be primary weapon system and not missiles or drones? Each type (proj, hybrid, lazor, missile or drones) should be able to act as primary or secondary weapon system if the player can make it work. Before diversifying into turrets my RattleSnake was my favorite mission boat, even after all NPC AI changes

    Tau Cabalander wrote:

    Nagnor wrote:
    Apparently CCP agrees that Specializations should not have a smaller sized Specializations as requirements. Devs have stated so in blogs and posts and CCP is going to cut the Assault Ships-> Heavy Assault Ships-> Field Command Ships and Logistics -> Fleet Command Ships and Covert Ops -> Recon Ships skill chains with the summer expansion

    No, those prerequisites were changed because they were stupid. I suggest you re-read the blogs.

    Why do you say that for all those ships the prerequisites were stupid and don't see that a similar pattern exists for turret specializations? Remember: CCP intends to remove all of them, even Assault Ships -> Heavy Assault Ships and Covert Ops-> Recon.
    I suggest you re-read as well, not just the blogs, but also the posts on the forum from CCP devs and other people who actually gave it some thought and reasoning (not just what had been said, but also to the implications and progressions beyond that)
    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #7 - 2013-05-01 20:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
    If you think about training for a specific class of ship, you probably want both the long and short range variants of the weapon systems. So, for example, you probably want both T2 HMLs and T2 HAMs if you're going to make full use of missile cruisers/battlecruisers, or you want both T2 pulses and T2 beams for energy weapon battleships.

    When you consider that, the missile tree actually starts to look really disadvantaged. It gets even worse if you just want to "dabble" in a weapon size using meta 4 weapons with skill 4 in that weapon size.

    Using EVEMon with a random low-skill (128k sp) alt I have laying around with whatever skills/implants it currently has (the starting remap and the two implants you get from the career agents, FWIW)
    For M4 frigate weapons:
    • 3d 35m 19s to get both Light Missiles and Rockets to level 4 (1d 11m for Rockets, 2d 23m for light missiles)
    • 1d 19m to get Small Energy Turret to level 4, allowing you to use both M4 pulses and M4 beams effectively

    The guy going for guns has nearly a third of the training time to get to use both types of small energy weapons effectively. The missile guy needs to spend just as long getting only rockets to level 4, and the gunnery guy gets both short and long range in that same time.

    For T2 frigate weapons:
    • 23d 6h 29m to get both Light Missile Spec and Rocket Spec to level 4 (8d 18h 29m for rockets, 14d 11h 59m for LMLs).
    • 12d 12h 33m to get both Small Pulse Laser Spec and Small Beam Laser Spec to level 4 (9d 2h 57m for just one or the other)

    Missile training to specialize in both takes nearly twice as long as the gunnery option. In fact, the gunnery guy can get both types to spec 4 in less than the time it would take the missile guy to get JUST light missiles to spec 4. In addition, the gunnery guy gets Motion Prediction III and Sharpshooter III in the process as prerequisites, leaving him with an additional 16h of support skills the missile guy doesn't have.

    For M4 cruiser weapons:
    • 6d 13h 61m to get both HMs and HAMs to level 4 (3d 12h for just one or the other)
    • 3d 8h 50m to get Medium Energy Turret to level 4

    Advantage to the guns, again--they can effectively use both the short and long range meta 4 guns in less time than it takes the missile guy to get to the same level with just one.

    For T2 cruiser weapons:
    • 45d 59m 11s to get both HM spec and HAM spec to level 4 (22d 18h 25m for just one or the other)
    • 43d 8h 25m to get both medium beam and medium pulse spec to level 4 (33d 5h for just one or the other)

    Now things are starting to even out. Missiles can specialize faster into one or the other, guns still win for both. But it's definitely worth noting a couple things...

    • Gunnery picks up 2d of support skills in either weapon that missiles would still need to train
    • Gunnery also gives you the small weapon specializations at 4, so if you want both frigate and cruiser missiles at spec 4 for a more fair comparison of what you're getting, you're looking at 67d 23h 8m to get the same thing--and you're still short 4d of support skills.

    Ball is still firmly in the guns' court.

    But for large weapons the missiles have to start winning, right?
    For M4 battleship weapons:
    • 15d 17h 5m to get both CM 4 and Torpedoes 4 (11d 15h 48m for just cruise, or 10d 15h 25m for just torps)
    • 11d 11h 43m to get Large Energy Turret 4.

    Oops. Gunnery can still train both long and short range weapons to level 4 in less than the time it takes missiles to train the long range to level 4. Torps get there a day faster. Also note that I think there might be a bug in the skill progression here--torps require HMs at 3, when they should probably require HAMs (and HAMs require LMs when they should probably require rockets). That would make things take even longer.

    For T2 battleship weapons:
    • 74d 10h 6m to get both Torp Spec 4 and CM Spec 4 ( 32d 21h 59m for just torps, 43d 8h 55m for just CMs)
    • 112d 16h 25m to get both Large Beam Laser Spec 4 and Large Pulse Laser Spec 4 ( 84d 23h 52m for one or the other )

    Yay, missiles win, right? Well, let's look closer.

    • Gunnery picks up 11d 11h of support skills in either weapon, 22d 22h total
    • Once you've trained one of the gunnery types to spec 4, it's only 27d 16h 17m to train the other up as well, including that 11d 11h support skill that benefits both. Missiles get basically the full training time in order to go from one to the other, with no support skills included.
    • Gunnery gives you all of the lower-level specs at 4. The more fair comparison is to get all of the levels of missiles to spec 4, for 132d 13h 58m --and you're still short those 22d 22h of support skills.


    So yes, missiles start to win at the battleship level if you're just looking to super-specialize in either the short or long range weapons and don't care about the other. If you care about both, it's only two weeks more in gunnery at the battleship level once you include the support skills. If you care about more than one size of ship--and, let's be honest, it's rather useful to be able to effectively fly more than one size of ship--gunnery blows missiles completely out of the water.

    So, TL;DR, I guess: HTFU, gunnery training is fine, and you really don't want gunnery training to become like missile training. In fact, if you hate gunnery training so much, I'll happily trade you the missile training tree for the gunnery training tree.

    If the lower-level prerequisites for gunnery specs were removed, the difference would be even more absurd than it is now. Gunnery would be specializing in both weapons at a given size in less time than missiles would be specializing in one.

    Also, I love the "draft" feature on these forums. I nearly lost this post, but it saved me!
    Zhilia Mann
    Tide Way Out Productions
    #8 - 2013-05-01 20:57:38 UTC
    Chris Winter wrote:
    Tasty, tasty numbers.


    You. I like you.
    Nagnor
    The Happy Shooters
    #9 - 2013-05-02 00:17:20 UTC
    Chris Winter wrote:

    ....

    Shocked You have put a lot of work in your post.

    Unfortunately you go wrong on numerous important aspects here:
    1) Key is specialization/focus. When you are talking about multiple specializations, you are missing the point big time. Training time is a scarce resource (unless you have an X year old char with X m SP).

    2) Your comparisment of rapid/short + slow long missiles vs pulse + Beam lazers already goes skew by the fact that for turrets there is no difference at T1, both have Small/Medium/Large Energy Turret as requirement, whereas for missile they are already 2 different weapons, each having their own skill (with possible different training multipliers, but having the same base skills). That's why you see:
  • SP(T1 Mis short) ~ SP (T1 Mis long)
  • SP(Mis Total) ~ SP(Mis short) + SP(Mis long) for both T1 and T2
  • with the exception of T1 Large because there the common base skills Missile Launch Op 5 and Heavy missile 3 make up for most of the training time.

    For turrets however you see:
  • SP(T1 Turret Total) = SP(T1 Turret short)=SP(T1 Turret long)
  • SP(T2 Turret short)=SP(T2 Turret long)
  • SP(T2 Turret Total) < 2* SP(T2 Turret short)

  • 3) You are so focused on comparing the multiple specializations between missiles and turrets that you miss a significant pattern when you skill with focus. That is if you stick with T1 weapon and size up there is no large difference in amount of training between between turret and missile. However if you specialize/ train T2 the small difference at frigate level, become a ~50% difference at the cruiser level (22 vs 33) and a ~100% difference at the Battleship level (43 vs 85) in favor of missiles.
    If you look at the composition of those numbers you will actually see that the gap doesn't come from difference in skilling the weapon type itself or the specialization itself, but from the subrequirements of the turret specialization.

    Torpedoes only has a multipler of 4. So for comparing Large weapons I use like with like, namely CM spec 1 with Large Beam Laser Spec 1
    For the missile variant you need to skill:
    Cruise Missile Specialization 1 (multiplier 8 = 2.000)
    Cruise Missile 5 (multiplier 5 = 1.280.000)
    Missile Launcher Operation 5 (mulitpler 1 = 256.000)
    Heavy Missiles 3 (multipler 3 = 24.000)
    Light Missiles 3 (multiplier 2 = 16.000)
    Totals to 1.578.000

    For the Energy turret variant you need to skill
    Large Beam Laser Specialization 1 (multiplier 8 = 2.000)
    Large Energy Turret 5 (multiplier 5 = 1.280.000)
    Gunnery 5 (mulitpler 1 = 256.000)
    Sharpshooter 5 (mulitpler 2 = 512.000)
    Medium Beam Laser spec 4 (multiplier 5 = 226.275)
    Small Beam Laser spec 4 (multiplier 3= 135.765)
    Medium Energy Turret 5 (multiplier 3 = 768.000)
    Small Energy Turret 5 (multiplier 1 = 256.000)
    Totals to 3.436.040

    So for getting the specialization into long ranged weapons at level 1 I will need 1.578.000 SP for missiles and 3.436.040 SP for the turrets. which more than double (according to your calculations it should be less than double: 43d 8h 55m for just CMs and 84d 23h 52m for one or the other What?)

    Now I actually start to use that in ships. For the Missiles 40.000 SP do not contribute to the performance of the ship in the form of damage dealt, rof, distance shot, etc and can therefore be classified as waste. This is 2.5%. However for the Turrets 1.386.040 SP do not contribute to the performance of the ship and this is a whooping 40.3%

    This is an example of "over-redundant training needed for specialization" of which CCP is not fond of and of which already 1 year ago they indicated that it definitely needed to be extensively discussed.
    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #10 - 2013-05-02 01:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
    The tradeoff here is that missiles are faster to skill into a specific variant of a specific size, while guns are faster to train into if you're training more than one thing of the same type of weapon. Does that mean missiles are better if you're training an alt character and specifically targeting only one level? Yes. But it also means that guns are better if you're following the natural expected character progression of the game, working your way up from smaller ships to larger ones.

    If the balance you want were to happen now with nothing else changed:

    Large Beam Laser Specialization 1 (multiplier 8 = 2.000)
    Large Energy Turret 5 (multiplier 5 = 1.280.000)
    Gunnery 5 (mulitpler 1 = 256.000)
    Sharpshooter 5 (mulitpler 2 = 512.000)
    Medium Energy Turret 3 (multiplier 3 = 24000)
    Small Energy Turret 3 (multiplier 1 = 8000)
    Totals to 2082000

    Still more than missiles, but consider that 512k of that is in a support skill that you're going to want anyway, so it's about the same.

    Except it's not the same, because the person who followed your desired skill tree for guns can now (well, 2k SP later) use both long AND short range T2 guns, while the missile guy isn't much closer to using the T2 torps than he was when he started, and he's still got ~1million skill points to go in order to get to that point.

    So CCP can't just naively change things the way you want them to, because that will make training both long and short variants of missiles suck even more in comparison to the equivalent turret training than it already does.

    My proposal would be to split the difference:
    - Drop lower level specialization from gun specialization skills
    - Require only level 3 of previous level to train next level standard skill

    Then either:
    - Combine the missile non-specialization skills the same way gunnery currently works
    - Add a support skill to prereqs for missile specialization
    OR:
    - Split the gunnery non-specialization skills into long and short range, like missiles

    Then everyone will be happy. But really, you can't say "I want the specialization speed of missiles" without offering a compromise either in "I'm willing to also have the generalization speed of missiles" or "Missiles should have the generalization speed of guns."

    Make sense?
    Nagnor
    The Happy Shooters
    #11 - 2013-05-02 09:11:05 UTC
    Chris Winter wrote:

    ...
    Then either:
    - Combine the missile non-specialization skills the same way gunnery currently works
    - Add a support skill to prereqs for missile specialization
    ...

    Make sense?

    I absolutely agree.

    The missile skill tree (with specializations) has a couple of issues of its own. You already mentioned the long ranged missile prereq (Light, Heavy) for the short ranged HAM and Torpedoes, which I find incorrect as well. Maybe CCP also struggled a bit with this, but decided to "fix" it by playing with the training multipliers. Instead of Small=1, Medium=3 and Large=5 like for turrets, you have Rocket=1, Light=2,Heavy/HAM=3, Torp=4 and Cruise=5. So they gave a discount for Torp. At lower levels the difference between 4 and 5 isn't much, but at level 5 it is clearly noticable.

    And from an earlier post
    Nagnor wrote:

    ...
    I said for T2 missiles "kind of" because I think some levels of Warhead Upgrade, Guided Missile Precision and Missile Projection should be added to the resp. Fury/Rage, High Precision and Long range missiles
    Ryelek d'Entari
    Horizon Glare
    #12 - 2013-05-08 00:36:03 UTC
    More maths, just counting skill ranks on my fingers, and looking only at the large size where training time is most pronounced:

    Non-specialization (all to III, discounting Gunnery and MLO as a wash):

    (1) torpedoes III: 9 ranks*
    (2) (one) large turret III: 9 ranks
    (3) cruise missiles III: 10 ranks
    (4) cruise+torps III: 15 ranks
    (5) all missiles III: 18 ranks
    (6) all large turrets III: 27 ranks

    *only requires MLO IV

    Support skills:

    (1) Turrets: 18 ranks
    (2) Missiles: 25 ranks

    T2 Specialization (again, discounting Gunnery and MLO as a wash):

    (1) Torpedoes: 4 ranks to V
    (2) Cruise: 5 ranks to V
    (3) Torpedoes + Cruise: 9 ranks to V
    (4) (one) small,medium,large turret series (short or long range): 9 ranks to V*, +8 ranks to IV
    (5) (one) small,medium,large turret series (short and long range): 9 ranks to V*, +16 ranks to IV
    (6) all missiles: 18 ranks to V
    (7) all turrets: 27 ranks to V*, +48 ranks to IV**

    *not including 2/4 ranks of required support skills to V
    **apparently I have 75 fingers

    If you're selective about which support skills you do and do not take to V, then training large cruise+torp spec vs training large turret spec (one series) is basically a wash. If you want all 3 turret series, that's another story.

    IMO it's the smaller-sized turret specializations IV prereq which is really irritating about training turret progression. They really add up. If those prereqs were dropped from IV to III, that alone would be a welcome change in my book, and not make us all sadface about slogging through medium railgun spec IV.
    Tau Cabalander
    Retirement Retreat
    Working Stiffs
    #13 - 2013-05-08 20:30:59 UTC
    As primarily a missile user, I really like the logical progression of turret skills.

    For example, I personally skipped rockets and light missiles (frigates in general). Though it was convenient at the time, I later regretted it.

    I should be done training all T2 and capital weapons (except T2 smartbombs) in time for Odyssey Big smile
    Caljiav Ocanon
    The Holy Rollers
    #14 - 2013-05-10 17:32:55 UTC
    The problem with turrets is if you decide to use two different races for your ships...

    I don't like Minmatar Battleships, I prefer Gallente but I prefer Minmatar for BC and down. Now then the training time for Tech II guns for both options is ridiculous.

    I have no desire to use smaller hybrid guns, but I have to waste a buttload of SP/time on them to get to what I want. For Minmatar it's not so bad because I can just stop at mediums though.

    Either way, I'm convinced a better system than they have now could be worked out.
    Mia Restolo
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #15 - 2013-05-10 17:42:12 UTC
    Haven't seen any real plans or discussion on it from CCP so it doesn't even get a soon™.
    Chris Winter
    Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
    Curatores Veritatis Alliance
    #16 - 2013-05-10 19:26:39 UTC
    Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
    The problem with turrets is if you decide to use two different races for your ships...

    I don't like Minmatar Battleships, I prefer Gallente but I prefer Minmatar for BC and down. Now then the training time for Tech II guns for both options is ridiculous.

    I have no desire to use smaller hybrid guns, but I have to waste a buttload of SP/time on them to get to what I want. For Minmatar it's not so bad because I can just stop at mediums though.

    Either way, I'm convinced a better system than they have now could be worked out.

    At least all the support skills are the same between the two weapon systems, so that's a lot easier than someone training from missiles into something else...