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WH "Coalitions" Blobs, Blue Lists, and bob.

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Author
QT McWhiskers
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#1 - 2013-04-08 09:12:40 UTC
Before I start, I want to make it 100 percent clear. I am in no way speaking for Hard Knocks or any other corp or alliance that took part in the defense of TLost or my home system in December. I am here as a simple wormholer wanting the opinions of other WHers, or K-space dwellers, on the recent events in W-Space.

As you all know there has been a lot of teaming up recently in W-space on one side of some dispute or the other. While I personally see the need for it given the current state of WH politics, I am not 100 percent happy with it. Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for the guys who came out during the HK invasion and would gladly put my caps on the line for someone else's hole. I just feel that if just ONE of the groups that invaded us attacked alone, we wouldn't have needed to call for backup. The final fight for that invasion would have looked something like 50 v 30 with us having a massive capital advantage. (Not disrespecting either groups that attacked btw, you attacked with what you assumed were sufficient numbers.)

The same can be said for the TL invasion. Its been said that polarized were the brains behind this OP. What would have happened if only Polarized attacked TL and our side didn't form up a massive fleet to try and roll for holes? Would Polarized still have been successful?

Blue lists are something that every group refuses to use. The proof of this can be seen every time we form up for some kind of op. You will see us on a kill together one week, and the next, we end up killing 15 billion in caps and a small tech 3 fleet of the same people.

What is the opinion of the standard John Q WHer?

As for me I personally dont like huge blobs of people... However I know that they are necessary. Any time there is an invasion, the attackers usually bring a much larger force than is needed. This causes the defenders to call on their Bros from other holes (I know it doesn Rhyme shut up). Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. I only question the necessity of forming up more than tripple the numbers of the group you are attacking when you decide to invade. Note that I only personally list attackers because the defensive groups only form up when we hear that there is a possible major fight to be had.

Then there is bob. What does he think about our form ups. Is he angry that we form up to fight a stronger enemy thus diluting our victory? Does he then smile as the other side team up to slay the mighty beast? Or is he simply happy that the blood of the WHer is spilt? Does he choke on the blood easily poured from an open wound? Or does he simply drink it all up and savor in the taste? SSC might be able to answer this one the best. Father Herrbert I look to you for guidance in these matters. (Sorry bert, couldnt resist)
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#2 - 2013-04-08 09:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Invasions suck for all parties involved. That can not be avoided, and all these forum wars over them have been completely pointless. Excessive force is kind of the whole point of evictions and I can't honestly blame anyone for doing evictions properly, especially considering how much structure shooting sucks. Same applies to doing defense against evictions properly, considering how much setting up new POSes sucks. If someone is enjoying an invasion or a defensive war, the other party is obviously not putting enough effort into crushing their enemies.

Only mystery here is what is needed to convince potential allies to join the tedious structure grind or the equally tedious ragerolling? I suspect allies are recruited with transparent lies of goodfights, which seems to be why these threads come up. Only thing that confuses me is why the hell anyone believes that an eviction is likely to be fun for either the attacker or the defender? You are only going to be disappointed if you join an eviction on either side of the fence, thinking you are in just for the fights.

I am happy as long as I don't see too large blobs in random fights in random wormholes, and those are unlikely due to the wonderful mechanics that govern wormhole warfare. I cry BLOB whenever our usual 10-man fleet is ambushed by some other group's typical 20-man fleet, but honestly speaking, those are nowhere near real blobs of any sort, just me being a sore loser.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-04-08 09:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
The current state of WH invasions/evictions is much like nullsec: both sides escalate until the one with more/luckier friends just wins on numbers.
WH space used to be about small scale PVP with 25-30man fleets being about the peak for most groups.
At those numbers tactics and skill still play a huge role where at 150+ man fleets where 10%+ of that is blap dreads, they really don't.

Personally I miss what WH fleets used to look like but i also know that It is extremely unlikely to ever change back.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#4 - 2013-04-08 10:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Jack Miton wrote:
WH space used to be about small scale PVP with 25-30man fleets being about the peak for most groups.

Funny. This is exactly the kind of PvP I see in wormholes.

The thing is, I probe further than my static for it, and I definitely do not try to find small gang warfare by trying to evict PvP corporations. You won't find interesting fights just by rolling your c6 or c5 static and not probing further down the chain, or just by invading holes.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-04-08 10:12:44 UTC
Personally I join those things just because of the off chance that it just might be a good fight. The december op ended up being almost like shooting ducks out there, as in more of a gank of the other fleet than a proper fight, the last major OP ended up being a huge brainfart from everyone involved (my personal opinion, I think everyone screwed up big time, including the winners of the confrontation). I don't particularily care for Hard Knocks, TL, Talocans, Aharm, Adhoc, VoC, Exhale, TRECI etc etc... you could list literally eveyrone here and the opinion would be just the same. At the same time each of these big names of w-space are what keeps me ticking in w-space.

Every single time I connect to those guys, or hear someone else say on comms that we're connected to this or that corp, it brightens up even the most boring and uneventful day; the possibility of a good fight. I don't want to evict any of those guys, not even the ones I hate (these are individuals, not really corps, and no I wont name them simply because I don't want the drama and bullshit, there's too much of it already here), because I want melt their faces with my blasters today, tomorrow as well as in the future. I don't really even want to evict the farmers because they never bring the fights, not even if their life depended on it. In otherwords, I personally don't like the blobs at all and would prefer if these evictions were done the old school way of one strong corp versus another. Not strong enough to pull it off? Too bad so sad, get stronger.

In my point of view, the only time the wormhole corps should truly unite, is when it is against an outside force such as silly nullbears trying to turn wormhole space into something that suits them better. Outside that, if you have a grudge with someone or some group, smash their faces in, or stay in your own corner crying that you can't.

And NO, this is NOT the official stand of the SSC or FCFTW, just how I feel about things. I don't want the tidi crap or the blue donut in wormhole space at all, and lately I've seen a bit too much of both, even if temporary.
Chitsa Jason
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#6 - 2013-04-08 10:17:26 UTC
I think it is in the human nature to form larger and larger organizations to beat other larger and larger organizations.

Evicting someone is as personal as it gets, it means that defenders will do everything in their power to batphone all friends they have. It is not a good thing but it is currently a fact in wspace. The only positive side I see for the 100+ man fleets is that gives more exposure to the wormhole space on news outlets.

People usually join such large operations because they don't want to miss out on the newsworthy huge fights. So it is a vicious circle on one hand everyone knows that blobbing is bad on the other hand they want to help their friends to win that huge victory.

I am glad that most of those blue lists are broken the next day the operation is over so we can shoot each other in the face. I always imagined w-space being like a collection of city states where each corp or alliance is separate city state with their distinctive politics and culture and I would love that to continue.



Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Q'ira
All Ore Nothing
#7 - 2013-04-08 10:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Q'ira
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think it is in the human nature to form larger and larger organizations to beat other larger and larger organizations.


Is this why Exhalized fields 50 man fleets while the rest >30? P
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#8 - 2013-04-08 10:51:18 UTC
I can say with confidence that Talun has no permanent blues. Sure, we have corps/alliances that we're friendly with but that doesn't mean we wont shoot them in the face.

Unfortunately as Chitsa has said in an earlier post it's human nature to want to win and form fleets where the odds are in your favour. But if you want my personal opinion (having been on both the giving and receiving ends) if you cant handle the situation solo - just stay home as it's (imo) ruining the reason we got into WH space for in the 1st place.

Anyways that's my 2 isk.

Cheers,

Sith

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-04-08 11:00:15 UTC
QT McWhiskers wrote:
What would have happened if only Polarized attacked TL and our side didn't form up a massive fleet to try and roll for holes? Would Polarized still have been successful?


Obviously, if nobody formed up to fight us the result would have been the same but it would have been a much more boring invasion.

I don't like blue blobs either but i also understand that it's a basic survival tactic. If you take a minimum force to an invasion and the defenders call for help and end up overwhelming you, you're going to bring an bigger fleet next time.

Like you said, when we meet each other in space, we have good fun fights when possible but sometimes someone draws a line in the sand and people pick a side for the opportunity to take part in a rare and epic battle. I see that as player driven content/activity creation.
Bane Nucleus
Assault and Battery
Transmission Lost
#10 - 2013-04-08 11:21:14 UTC
I keep hearing that people wouldn't care if it was one alliance vs. another, but history has shown us that isn't true either.

Personally, I think getting these huge fleets going is unavoidable. You are going to have one side that is always "dont evict pvpers from wh space. it's bad for everyone". Then on the other side of the coin you have the guys that don't want one group of players to dictate how they play the game. This naturally leads to a conflict, where the lines are drawn and sides are chosen. Speaking only for myself, I love this sort of conflict driver.

No trolling please

Afuran
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-04-08 11:42:23 UTC
People will do what people can do- and people like winning better than losing.

I personally don't enjoy blob fights- individual pilots don't count for much when you have 100 more waiting to take his place.

I also don't enjoy besieging a system for a week and structure shooting for no personal gain.

Removing corps and alliances from W-space only means less targets overall and to me, that's bad.

Just my 2 cents.
Qumar Nuom
Clandestine Services
#12 - 2013-04-08 11:50:54 UTC
The approach sounds reasonable (at least in the beginning)....

But what would be the consequence?

As Jitsa pointed out, people don't want to lose, so more people would team up permanently in alliances to be able to pull their weight during eviction ops without being blamed for "blue-balling" (aka get enough corps/alliances behind your goal)

So WH space would get even more boring because of that approach.

Keep it as it is. In this way every corp/alliance has the choice how to react and will be able to change their mind on a case to case basis, without betraying/backstabbing alliance mates, who obviously would rely on them all the time...

The actual situation is not to bad at all, w-space sees different constellations all the time and everybody accepts it. That is the big difference between W- and K-space....

my 2 isk
IgnasS
The First Foundation
Legion of xXDEATHXx
#13 - 2013-04-08 11:59:59 UTC
Q'ira wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think it is in the human nature to form larger and larger organizations to beat other larger and larger organizations.


Is this why Exhalized fields 50 man fleets while the rest >30? P


Exhalized - Lol

Seriously thou, we have only been one time in the same fleet after the split up.
Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot
Darwinism.
#14 - 2013-04-08 12:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Bell
I have yet to see one alliance or one corp come in and fight to evict another corp.. It is always bring 5 alliances to fight one guy.. Having former TL on your side in the most recent of events you guys knew what they had.. and "most" WH groups are not very fond of TL.. So how do you justify the numbers.. You could have brought a third of what you had and still killed them.. I dont by the we escalated to stop your escalation from escalating crap..

Go in with good numbers and prove your skill.. hold back some caps and heli D*ck them in at the last minute to tip things in your favor.. But I mean honestly bringing 10 times the numbers to start is just lame.. IMO

How much more fun would a eviction be if you actually got one good big fight out of it, where you each had your trump cards and there was actually some suspense as to who had better intel.. Vs bring 500 and no one can stop us yarrr!!

I mean I think it is cool to not evict WH corps that pew but on the other hand if they can defend themselves then it is there fault, and maybe someone should replace them that will bring in all there shiney stuff to keep there home safe?

Bear in mind when I say defend I dont mean the 400 man blob of ten alliances brought down on one corp...

Thats just my opinion but I think things would be alot more fun if it was about the skill of the planning stages vs the recruiting of 200 allies..
QT McWhiskers
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#15 - 2013-04-08 12:01:01 UTC
The responses here are truly refreshing. I see people on both sides of the fence, and people from the sidelines telling me basically the same thing. Not really fond of blues, but will use them if they have to. I was actually worried for a while that WHs were gravitating towards the blue donut.

I see the necessity of the blue donut at certain times, and I can see why we team up for WH OPs as well. (Teaming up to try and gank a nyx in low sec doesnt count. All of W-Space would team up for super kills if they had the ability.) I just honestly wish we didnt have to.

Sedilis
Lead Farmers
#16 - 2013-04-08 12:07:08 UTC
I believe most of the top end pvp alliances/corps in wspace still hold the view that evicting other pvpers is bad for business. We mostly strive for good fights and removing a group that will try to bring a good fight only serves to reduce opportunities for the future.

That said there is nothing wrong with a good old fashioned grudge. But if an alliance decides to invade another it is only natural the defenders will batphone people to assist them. Some will respond out of old allegiances others just because there is a chance of a large scale fight.

A successful invasion usually means bringing more people than the defenders have in order to overcome the home advantage. But if the aggressors are perceived to be either bringing some overwhelming coalition or being unjustified in their actions there is a good chance other parts of the community will forum up to intervene.

We in KILL would rather see our enemies live to fight us another day.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-04-08 12:41:34 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
WH space used to be about small scale PVP with 25-30man fleets being about the peak for most groups.

The thing is, I probe further than my static for it, and I definitely do not try to find small gang warfare by trying to evict PvP corporations. You won't find interesting fights just by rolling your c6 or c5 static and not probing further down the chain, or just by invading holes.

you used to get fights by invading systems all the time. now it's impossible because those 'pvp' corporations just batphone half of WH space to avoid a real fight.

also, anyone claiming i dont probe down chains doesnt know me very well.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Bane Nucleus
Assault and Battery
Transmission Lost
#18 - 2013-04-08 12:48:23 UTC
Gary Bell wrote:


Go in with good numbers and prove your skill.. hold back some caps and heli D*ck them in at the last minute to tip things in your favor.. But I mean honestly bringing 10 times the numbers to start is just lame.. IMO



Except it wasn't anywhere near 10x the number at the start. Once we started hearing of TL getting on their bat phones is when we called in more people. We knew exactly what came to help you guys and we had to prepare for that. Hell, at one time you guys had roughly 110 fleet based on what I have heard. Add to that the numerous third parties rolling to get in and whatever other allies you had that may have not been in fleet, it would have been a lot more than that.

And just to make it 100% clear, I am not blaming them at all for getting help. You are defending your wh from a possible eviction. You do whatever it takes.

No trolling please

Gary Bell
Herp Inc.dot
Darwinism.
#19 - 2013-04-08 13:06:43 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Gary Bell wrote:


Go in with good numbers and prove your skill.. hold back some caps and heli D*ck them in at the last minute to tip things in your favor.. But I mean honestly bringing 10 times the numbers to start is just lame.. IMO



Except it wasn't anywhere near 10x the number at the start. Once we started hearing of TL getting on their bat phones is when we called in more people. We knew exactly what came to help you guys and we had to prepare for that. Hell, at one time you guys had roughly 110 fleet based on what I have heard. Add to that the numerous third parties rolling to get in and whatever other allies you had that may have not been in fleet, it would have been a lot more than that.

And just to make it 100% clear, I am not blaming them at all for getting help. You are defending your wh from a possible eviction. You do whatever it takes.



To point out I dident claim you guys specifically.. I just mean in general the first thought when you decide to pew someone is bring out all the things and rage at them with 400.. It would be nice if that wasent the first case..

Tbh there was this other big wormhole eviction attempt I was referring to.. Wink Wink.. Where the first thought was bring all the blues.. Then claim we are here for goodfites..

In your attempt though.. I honestly dont think there would have been so much defence responce if you hadent brought what you did.. Im pretty sure polarized could have done it alone easily.. and 1 v 1 in wormholes is something I think we would all like to see..

Nutmegpainter
Tri-gun
An Alliance Has No Name
#20 - 2013-04-08 13:07:04 UTC
Whale girth approves of this post Lol
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