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Cloaking Countermeasures

Author
Kenshi Hanshin
WinterFel
RAZOR Alliance
#1 - 2013-03-05 20:37:53 UTC
I am sure that there will be people (mostly reds to me) that will be unhappy about this. Though I will be happy to start camping you in an "afk" cloaky ship too. If that helps to change your tune.

Now moving on to the goal of this topic. Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP. Mostly that there is no way in 'hell' to counter them. Unless you want to spend all of your free time for months working through the system. Blink If so, I will be sitting here and wait for you to come back and report on how easy it was.

As has been mentioned in the forums before, I believe, modules for POS were suggested. Modules that would emit a pulse causing the decloaking of ships in that system (every 5-15 min, I think it was). Personally, I think that is a great idea. Even Goonswarm might like to have those in 'certain' systems.

The modules should be not too easy to setup and run. Otherwise it would nullify the use of cloaky ships. Yet it needs to still be in the realm of reasonable. Anyway, I am sure that some of you have criticism and flaming to do. So have at it!
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#2 - 2013-03-05 20:40:26 UTC
Wow this thread again, searching does wonders.
And no most of us do not think cloaking is OP

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#3 - 2013-03-05 20:42:18 UTC
They're hundreds of other threads about them, search button at the top Roll

(Posting in afk cloak thread number 14553671154)

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Kenshi Hanshin
WinterFel
RAZOR Alliance
#4 - 2013-03-05 20:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
Stay on topic! Or find something else to do...
___________________________________________

So are you two saying that you are against having POS mounted modules that can do that? Or are you two having nothing better to do besides acting like children?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2013-03-05 21:10:00 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Stay on topic!

As you wish.

I am highly amused by the suggestion that cloaking is OP.

Every bottleneck gate a cloaked ship passes through forces it to be in a known quantity of space. Blame yourself if you cannot manage to make the effort needed to stop them.

As to afk cloaking, no counter? It is an absurd blind spot to make that claim, because it IS the counter... the counter to the absolute intel provided freely to everyone by local's Amazing Intel™.

Cloaking is already exposed by local. As local is an absolute factor, so is cloaking's concealment.

Exchange local for a less absolute manner of exposing cloaking. Something that requires player effort, and has no guarantee of success.
CCP will balance cloaking to match that, then.

Remember, it takes an absolute to balance another absolute, and balance is needed for gameplay.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#6 - 2013-03-05 21:12:11 UTC
If you want a module to disrupt cloaks, then it must apply to ALL modules equally.
Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2013-03-05 21:15:18 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Now moving on to the goal of this topic. Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP.

I don't agree. How is a ship that has minimal tanking ability and/or delayed locking time coming out of cloak and/or lower combat ability in a direct confrontation and/or is extremely weak against certain types of ships OP?

Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Mostly that there is no way in 'hell' to counter them.

- rat, mine, or run complexes with a buddy or two in PvP ships.
- PvP-fit your own ship (ex. warp disruptor, Warrior II drones, heavy energy neutralizer, etc).
- get everyone into the same fleet and have one or two people in combat interceptors on standby at all times.
- alter your PvE tactics... range and speed tank rather than sit and absorb damage.
- use cheaper ships you won't mind replacing if something bad happens (ex. don't use a Faction Battleship or Carrier when a T1 battleship or battlecruiser will do).
- use different kinds of ships that are better suited for hostile engagements (ex. use a Procurer versus a Hulk).

Remember... a cloaky person will only decloak and attack someone he/she THINKS they can kill (which is actually a very short list). If you make yourself appear to be more trouble than you are worth, then you will be relatively safe.

Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
As has been mentioned in the forums before, I believe, modules for POS were suggested. Modules that would emit a pulse causing the decloaking of ships in that system (every 5-15 min, I think it was). Personally, I think that is a great idea. Even Goonswarm might like to have those in 'certain' systems.

Of course every null-sec person would LIKE to have such a POS mod... but the fact of the matter is that it isn't "balanced" because it doesn't address WHY people AFK-cloak.

AFK-Cloaking is done in response to Local reporting anyone and everyone who enters system 100% of the time without delay. Since null-sec people dock and log off when a "non-blue" enters system (denying any possibility for a random person or small group to do any damage) people bring in cloaking ships and sit in them for days... to dilute Local's infallibility.

And even if you do somehow get this pushed through (fat chance) there will still be other ways to achieve the same result. For instance... did you know that you that "unprobable" ship setups still exist? Get an interceptor... fit it for speed and cap stability... add ECCM mods... plug in an implant set (either the one that increases your ship's sensor strength or the one that decreases your sig radius)... blitz into a system, safe up, and then burn towards some random place in space.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#8 - 2013-03-05 21:23:05 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Now moving on to the goal of this topic. Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP.

I don't agree. How is a ship that has minimal tanking ability and/or delayed locking time coming out of cloak and/or lower combat ability in a direct confrontation and/or is extremely weak against certain types of ships OP?

This got me thinking a while back and a standard cloaking device has a 30 second sensor recalibration delay and -40% to scan resolution that kind of screws over most every combat situation for non covert ops cloaks. I think standard cloaks need buffed and bphave the scan resolution penalty removed.
For covert ops cloaks the ships that can use them have paper tanks so they are balanced.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#9 - 2013-03-05 22:19:56 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:

As has been mentioned in the forums before,


EvE Forums Understatement of the Century nomination in regards to AFK cloaking threads.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Shahai Shintaro
Caldari Manufacturing and Design
#10 - 2013-03-05 22:34:25 UTC
I posted in the last one and didn't get a response so I'll try again here. I don't live in null, I live in faction war low sec. I can see no issue with cloaked ships especially if they are afk. A cloaked ship can do nothing except provide Intel. The only way to know they are even there is a name in local, however that person may be docked in station or sitting in a pos. What effect does this player have on me? There have been several times where I have had to do something and had no station to dock at so I just cloak up.

tl;dr Someone please explain to me why so many people have an issue with cloaking
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2013-03-05 22:43:23 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
tl;dr Someone please explain to me why so many people have an issue with cloaking

If you are serious, it is this:

Players who rely on local chat to provide intel, rather than use other means of proactive defense, cannot resolve the presence of a pilot who is not blue to them. This causes them to avoid PvE activities for the duration of the stranger's presence.

As they cannot blob them out, and their defensive ships apparently won't stay long enough to cover them otherwise, the cloaking pilot can stifle the PvE simply by letting local report them as being in the system.

You simply have to keep them from locating your ship, thus denying blob defensive tactics.
The flaw in the logic is simply that while a common means of hanging out in local this way, it is not necessary to be cloaked at all for this effect.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#12 - 2013-03-05 23:01:17 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I posted in the last one and didn't get a response so I'll try again here. I don't live in null, I live in faction war low sec. I can see no issue with cloaked ships especially if they are afk. A cloaked ship can do nothing except provide Intel. The only way to know they are even there is a name in local, however that person may be docked in station or sitting in a pos. What effect does this player have on me? There have been several times where I have had to do something and had no station to dock at so I just cloak up.


Is a problem only for some null-bears of course. They are trained to not do anything when the local is not 100% blue. Also: many of their ratting bots are programmed to automatically warp in safe when a neutral is in llocal; someone cloacked in there ruins their business.


Shahai Shintaro wrote:

tl;dr Someone please explain to me why so many people have an issue with cloaking


Isn't "so many people" is always the same player reposting every 48 hours with a different alts. Most of ppl are perfectly fine with cloacking.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#13 - 2013-03-05 23:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
I posted in the last one and didn't get a response so I'll try again here. I don't live in null, I live in faction war low sec. I can see no issue with cloaked ships especially if they are afk. A cloaked ship can do nothing except provide Intel. The only way to know they are even there is a name in local, however that person may be docked in station or sitting in a pos. What effect does this player have on me? There have been several times where I have had to do something and had no station to dock at so I just cloak up.

This is just my point of view... but it has more to do with "safety" against cloaking ships being defensive rather than proactive.

Since I too live in low-sec I've come to expect ship on ship violence pretty much around every corner... waiting to hit me when I least expect it or want it. So I take precautions. And I still understand that even with precautions there is no guarantee that I will be completely "safe." But I'm okay with that. I accept it and factor it in when making ISK.
Because of the way I do things, cloaked ships are no more dangerous than any other ship in low-sec... in fact, they are less dangerous due to their built in weaknesses.

However in null-sec things are very different. I've noticed that many players out there don't like to play "defensively"... instead they want to wipe out any possible threat as soon as possible ("proactive defense") and/or hide from it because it is simply easier to do so.
AFK cloaking denies people the ability to do either because cloaked ships cannot be found and are fairly patient... which creates a constant, if unreliable, potential threat which people are not used to.
Mikaila Penshar
SISTAHs of EVE
#14 - 2013-03-06 00:18:26 UTC



wait... there's CLOAKING in eve?Shocked?

meh- who knew


DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-03-06 00:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: DataRunner Attor
Cloaking is oped, cause it broken, and it broken because it untrackable, you can not find someone cloaked, you can catch him, but not out right find him.

However it also balanced because we have a second item that is broken. That is Local

Local gives everyone 100% reliable Intel, there is nothing more reliable then local. So before something can be brought into the game that is made to hunt cloakers, one must remove local as local in is itself is the real reason why cloaking is not only oped, but also balance so I suggest this for all you "Wish to balance cloaking thread makers."

Before you add something, you must take something away with equal value.

If you want to be able to have a ship/fitting that can detect cloak, you must in turn remove the tool that given to all players that allows them all to see cloakers with no training

You must remove local.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
#16 - 2013-03-06 00:58:24 UTC
OMG OP really?

First you bring up the exact topic that has been posted countless times. And shot down countless times.

Then you can't even be bothered to come up with some new spin on the idea, to give you a valid reason to repost the same idea.

THEN you can't even take the time to find someone else's post and at least copy their ideas in greater detail to be discussed.

So if you are too damned lazy to do even the basics, why should anyone bother taking the time discussing an idea that has already been discussed into the ground.

Maybe it's the same reason your alliance of over 1000 members are too damned lazy to defend the measly 4 systems you hold.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#17 - 2013-03-06 01:04:27 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
OMG OP really?

First you bring up the exact topic that has been posted countless times. And shot down countless times.

Then you can't even be bothered to come up with some new spin on the idea, to give you a valid reason to repost the same idea.

THEN you can't even take the time to find someone else's post and at least copy their ideas in greater detail to be discussed.

So if you are too damned lazy to do even the basics, why should anyone bother taking the time discussing an idea that has already been discussed into the ground.

Maybe it's the same reason your alliance of over 1000 members are too damned lazy to defend the measly 4 systems you hold.
This.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-03-06 02:56:01 UTC
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:
Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP. Mostly that there is no way in 'hell' to counter them. Unless you want to spend all of your free time for months working through the system.

I know, right?

They sit there in my wormhole, cloaked up, watching me...
Watching me warp around and jump in and out. Sitting off wormholes or watching my POS. Watching me warp around planet to planet doing PI in my T1 hauler. Sitting on grid with me while I run anoms. Stalking me for a warpin while their fleet gets in position.

I don't have local to tell me, but they're there. I KNOW they're there. They're ALWAYS there. Watching.. Waiting...

And 0 ***** are given

HTFU

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Alara IonStorm
#19 - 2013-03-06 03:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Drake Doe wrote:
They're hundreds of other threads about them, search button at the top Roll

(Posting in afk cloak thread number 14553671154)

Yikes that many, lots of folks must want this.

I would enjoy a Sweeper Mods and Bonused Ships for hunting cloaky ships. Then again I want more cloaky options to go with that as well then current. A more combat oriented cloak fleet. Less absolute detection like Local too, gotta run D-Scans. You don't see their ship type on D-Scan, they don't see yours, you don't see their name in local they don't see you. The Gate Cloak merges with a regular cloak with the same properties and while you would be able to scan down the location of a Bubble you can not scan through it. You need to fire detection charges which can penetrate a cloak but not a gate cloak. Cloak Ships would be able to use propulsion mods.

Like Subhunt... IN SPACE.

Edit ties in with this. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2706895#post2706895
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#20 - 2013-03-06 05:45:11 UTC
Nope, I'd rather troll till this thread gets locked

@ Alara Ironstorm just because something similar has been suggested hundreds (I'm probably not exaggerating) of time doesn't make it a good idea. With cloaky ship's main defence being said cloak a nerf to it is similar to halfing the effect of dcus on particular ships. If they could attack while cloaked I'd support this but since they can't, I don't

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

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