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Crime & Punishment

 
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GM Response On Bumping

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Author
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#41 - 2013-01-30 14:45:57 UTC
I support miner bumping when it is done in the form of afk mining and botters and even as a way to secure belts for alliance mineral goals. But NPC "agents" ruin the emergent gameplay in the same way npc miners do. The miners who drop corp due to wardecs are not real miners, And agents conducting operations from npc corps arent real agents. You may as well both be npc's and treated as such. Cannon Fodder.

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.

Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#42 - 2013-01-30 16:24:01 UTC
Perhaps its clear to everyone but me but what exactly does this announcement settle?

Someone correct my paraphrasing of the definitive decision on bumping...

A player may bump another player as much as he wants, for emergent gameplay or pvp reasons, as long as he doesn't cross the line into harassment. An example of harassment given is to follow another player to another place, somewhere more than a little distance, and bump them again. The word "follow" is unclearly defined but is open to CCP interpretation on a case by case basis. Also, it is definitely against the rules to claim in your bio that CCP endorses bumping.

Forgive me if I think this resolves nothing. Here is the scenario based on a true event.

I fly into Gosalav and find the ice field rife with bot aspirants (sorry, Whitehound). I bump several, repeatedly, because they are rebel miners and refuse to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct (www.minerbumping.com). I send them all the standard email explaining to them what they must do to be Code compliant. A few bother to respond, some telling me to grow up, others telling me they have petitioned me for "harassment", and some others just telling me they won't pay.

Based on their responses some miners get my special attention and get bumped more... a lot more. All they have to do to get me to stop is pay the 10,000,000 ISK mining fee and agree to follow The Code. Most do not. Some even attempt a gank using alts or friends. After ALL fails, they leave system. I bump a few more, the miners clear out and Gosalav is subdued with no one mining in the ice except Code compliant miners.

So, I move a few jumps to Fabum. And find another ice belt full of afking and botting miners. Now, under the new "ruling" I can bump any of these miners EXCEPT those who have fled here from Gosalav. If I bump them I may be subject to an interpretation of this policy as harassing the miner. I didn't go looking for them, I moved on because I had "won" in Gosalav. But, even from the miners perspective, how can anyone know why I found them again? So the miner thinks, "Bing bumped me, I moved, Bing bumped me again, ah hah! harassment! PETITION TIME!"

So now some GM has to decide whether I am, in fact, harassing a miner by bumping him. Nothing solved.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Keisha Mei Ash
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-01-30 16:58:48 UTC
Yep, so yet again, you have to work harder, and you cannot continually bump players who want nothing to do with the New Order. I really don't understand why you can't process this in your mind.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#44 - 2013-01-30 17:07:18 UTC
Keisha Mei Ash wrote:
Yep, so yet again, you have to work harder, and you cannot continually bump players who want nothing to do with the New Order. I really don't understand why you can't process this in your mind.


Proving my point. Miners STILL think we can't bump them into submission.

BBB

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Dracvlad
Tactically Challenged
Tactical Supremacy
#45 - 2013-01-30 18:39:34 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Keisha Mei Ash wrote:
Yep, so yet again, you have to work harder, and you cannot continually bump players who want nothing to do with the New Order. I really don't understand why you can't process this in your mind.


Proving my point. Miners STILL think we can't bump them into submission.

BBB


You can have a major impact on those that afk mine for plex, but if you bump me, I would just sit there and laugh wondering how far you can bump me out and cheering you on while trying to make it hard for you, so no you cannot bump people like me into submission, because not everyone who mines does so in yield fitted ships and are afk.

Griefing and harrassment is a fine line, If you had gone there after everyone had moved off then they would not see it as harrassment, but if one or two moved and you did not force everyone out and started on them two again in a new location then you might find yourself in trouble, you have a campaign to force your code on defined systems, stick to that and your likely to be safe.

Do you only operate in Gallente space by the way?

In terms of the decision, a common sense decision by CCP, I for one want no mechanisms around bumping, the griefing community would have a field day with manipulating such a mechanism, personally if some afk miners get bumped away what the hell do I care...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

unidenify
Plundering Penguins
Solyaris Chtonium
#46 - 2013-01-30 19:17:30 UTC
I read and want to know one thing.

according to what GM state. person can't bump other person forever when other person make effort to stay away from him by jump to other system, etc. But what about those corp whom goal is to bump miner. would corp get punishment for this action?
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#47 - 2013-01-30 19:33:29 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Keisha Mei Ash wrote:
Yep, so yet again, you have to work harder, and you cannot continually bump players who want nothing to do with the New Order. I really don't understand why you can't process this in your mind.


Proving my point. Miners STILL think we can't bump them into submission.

BBB


You can have a major impact on those that afk mine for plex, but if you bump me, I would just sit there and laugh wondering how far you can bump me out and cheering you on while trying to make it hard for you, so no you cannot bump people like me into submission, because not everyone who mines does so in yield fitted ships and are afk.

Griefing and harrassment is a fine line, If you had gone there after everyone had moved off then they would not see it as harrassment, but if one or two moved and you did not force everyone out and started on them two again in a new location then you might find yourself in trouble, you have a campaign to force your code on defined systems, stick to that and your likely to be safe.

Do you only operate in Gallente space by the way?


Writing things out still leaves room for mistaken intent I guess. What I mean is she clearly thinks we aren't allowed to TRY to bump them into submission.

Now, as far as the fine line, this is my point. If I space lawyer the announcement I CAN follow them from Gosalav to Fabum because its two jumps. GM Karidor said it had to be more than one or two jumps. He also said the miner needed to make some effort to avoid being found again such as making locating agents required. Or not. Its all very grey.

As far as defined systems, we DO do that. The New Order of Highsec clearly states that we are only interested in systems with security status of .5 to 1.0. This is how we define where we operate and where we expect miners to follow our Code. So, the miner COULD move to lowsec or null and avoid us. Inconvenient maybe but effective. Even more effective is buying a mining permit and following The Code.

In any case, I expect the miners we bump will still continue to petition us and will use this announcement as authority to call us harassers. I still find it rediculous that in a game famous for destroying peoples ships, stations and even organizations that bumping into someone is considered over the line.

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Bantara
Dolmite Cornerstone
#48 - 2013-01-30 20:51:18 UTC
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Now, as far as the fine line, this is my point. If I space lawyer the announcement I CAN follow them from Gosalav to Fabum because its two jumps. GM Karidor said it had to be more than one or two jumps. He also said the miner needed to make some effort to avoid being found again such as making locating agents required. Or not. Its all very grey.

Dang, does that mean you'll have to use good judgement, common sense, and a sense of what might cross the line into harassment??
Yikes....
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#49 - 2013-01-30 21:47:10 UTC
Bantara wrote:

Dang, does that mean you'll have to use good judgement, common sense, and a sense of what might cross the line into harassment??
Yikes....


So the answer is sometimes bumping is harassment and sometimes its not...

I guess we have SOME guidelines now. I can bump someone morning, noon and night, as long as its in the same system or within a couple jumps. And if I feel like I'm getting too close to the edge on the harassment I can just call in a Knights fleet to gank their 200 million ISK Mack and pod them without being petitionable.

I can work within those boundaries.

I know CCP had a tough time trying to find the right balance on this. The final decision is pretty generous to us bumpers. I just know from months now of working with the miners that any sliver of doubt will be 100% proof to them and the complaints and petitions and forum threads will continue.

I would have preferred them to stop at "CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit." and not put the "However" and opened it all back up again.

BBB

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com

Tark en Chalune
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-01-30 23:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tark en Chalune
Jint Hikaru wrote:


Says the NPC Corp member.

(Not that i agree with hiding in NPC Corp But....)
Seriously, if you are going to complain about miners avoiding wardecs by being in NPC corps, you could at least man-up and post with your main.


Feel better now?

As long as miners continue to hide in NPC corps to avoid PvP while AFK mining and botting, I will continue to use my Ganking alt, in an NPC corp, Agent Trask, to blow them to hell.

I will also continue to role play this alt as a thug who will use deadly force to enforce an unwanted code on these AFK players because doing so is hilarious, and I have every right to role play in EvE Online, even if some scrubby bot miners get asploded in the process.

If this offends you, I am waiting for you in wormhole space. No wardec required.

Hope this helps, have a nice day.
Melody Amatin
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-01-31 04:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Melody Amatin
Bing Bangboom wrote:
So, I move a few jumps to Fabum. And find another ice belt full of afking and botting miners. Now, under the new "ruling" I can bump any of these miners EXCEPT those who have fled here from Gosalav. If I bump them I may be subject to an interpretation of this policy as harassing the miner. I didn't go looking for them, I moved on because I had "won" in Gosalav. But, even from the miners perspective, how can anyone know why I found them again? So the miner thinks, "Bing bumped me, I moved, Bing bumped me again, ah hah! harassment! PETITION TIME!"


This clarification (from page 1 - this post) pretty clearly states that moving a few jumps away is NOT sufficient on the part of the miner to "evade" you and you would not be harassing them if you bumped them again in your scenario (emphasis mine):

"While it will involve inconvenience, we will have to see that one actively tried evasion before we consider someone being followed around and harassed. Merely changing belts in the same system or moving a few thousand meters to another asteroid would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly, requiring some effort to locate you again (i.e. through locator agents)."
Keisha Mei Ash
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-01-31 07:52:30 UTC
Tark en Chalune wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:


Says the NPC Corp member.

(Not that i agree with hiding in NPC Corp But....)
Seriously, if you are going to complain about miners avoiding wardecs by being in NPC corps, you could at least man-up and post with your main.


Feel better now?

As long as miners continue to hide in NPC corps to avoid PvP while AFK mining and botting, I will continue to use my Ganking alt, in an NPC corp, Agent Trask, to blow them to hell.

I will also continue to role play this alt as a thug who will use deadly force to enforce an unwanted code on these AFK players because doing so is hilarious, and I have every right to role play in EvE Online, even if some scrubby bot miners get asploded in the process.

If this offends you, I am waiting for you in wormhole space. No wardec required.

Hope this helps, have a nice day.

Hot damn, Jint, you got spanked.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#53 - 2013-01-31 14:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
Guess I did.

However he is still complaining about a tactic his enemies use, while using the same tactic.
Basically claiming its ok for him to do so because they are, while complaining about it on the forums.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in that.

But if he is juts targeting AFK Miners.. then get to it. Good Hunting!


Anyway, we are getting close to derailing this thread......

Back to Bumping.... GO....

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#54 - 2013-01-31 22:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kainotomiu Ronuken
Bantara wrote:
Bing Bangboom wrote:
Now, as far as the fine line, this is my point. If I space lawyer the announcement I CAN follow them from Gosalav to Fabum because its two jumps. GM Karidor said it had to be more than one or two jumps. He also said the miner needed to make some effort to avoid being found again such as making locating agents required. Or not. Its all very grey.

Dang, does that mean you'll have to use good judgement, common sense, and a sense of what might cross the line into harassment??
Yikes....

What happens if the GMs who deal with the petition take a slightly different meaning from Karidor's words? I mean, if we're leaving it up to anyone's interpretation of 'harassment', it could be anything.
Sara XIII
The Carnifex Corp
#55 - 2013-01-31 22:25:33 UTC
This is a great decision. Well done CCP. Big smile

In response James 315 has issued a "Call to Bump" for this Sunday! Pick a side, fit an appropriate ship, and come join us in Brapelille at 21:00 EvE time.

please visit www.minerbumping.com for details.
Between Ignorance and Wisdom
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#56 - 2013-01-31 22:26:45 UTC
It will be interesting to see what spin the "rebellion" puts on this news.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#57 - 2013-01-31 22:30:41 UTC
admiral root wrote:
It will be interesting to see what spin the "rebellion" puts on this news.

Which one? I think Anslo has given up on his blog - he's managed to put out a total of three or four posts this whole month, none of which contained any content at all.

The Tolero Guard didn't last any longer than Jake Salvator himself did, and this one never even edited the default WordPress post.
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#58 - 2013-01-31 22:36:39 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
admiral root wrote:
It will be interesting to see what spin the "rebellion" puts on this news.

Which one? I think Anslo has given up on his blog - he's managed to put out a total of three or four posts this whole month, none of which contained any content at all.

The Tolero Guard didn't last any longer than Jake Salvator himself did, and this one never even edited the default WordPress post.


I don't think anyone has seriously contended the throne of Anslo so far. Not even this guy, although it's hard to rise to the top and maintain your sekrit identity.

Still, maybe this will galvanise the opposition into taking decisive action against us, thus bringing victory to the New Order even sooner.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
#59 - 2013-01-31 22:39:19 UTC
Sara XIII wrote:
This is a great decision. Well done CCP. Big smile

In response James 315 has issued a "Call to Bump" for this Sunday! Pick a side, fit an appropriate ship, and come join us in Brapelille at 21:00 EvE time.

please visit www.minerbumping.com for details.




You have my 100mn AB fitted Talos.

*salutes*

Twisted

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#60 - 2013-01-31 22:45:07 UTC
admiral root wrote:
I don't think anyone has seriously contended the throne of Anslo so far. Not even this guy, although it's hard to rise to the top and maintain your sekrit identity.

Still, maybe this will galvanise the opposition into taking decisive action against us, thus bringing victory to the New Order even sooner.

That one is new to me. Thanks for the link.

Is he actually doing anything, or just complaining about people shooting his barge?