These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

POSes: I am a small portion of the community

First post First post
Author
Intex Encapor
#1241 - 2013-01-17 17:20:15 UTC
Toku Jiang wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:


From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"




You found two little nuggets in the CSM minutes, but this here from the Null Sec portion on page 37 is what really screams out to me

"UAxDEATH disagreed and brought up an example of priorities like POSes, “you promised us those things”. Greyscale replied that coming into meetings with the mindset of CCP promising a certain feature is a fallacious, and flat-out wrong, mindset. With conversation now completely deteriorating,

Unifex took control of the conversation and spoke about POSes. Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”."

So this makes it sound like POSes are not important and not going to get attention.


++
mynnna
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1242 - 2013-01-17 17:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Toku Jiang wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:


From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"




You found two little nuggets in the CSM minutes, but this here from the Null Sec portion on page 37 is what really screams out to me

"UAxDEATH disagreed and brought up an example of priorities like POSes, “you promised us those things”. Greyscale replied that coming into meetings with the mindset of CCP promising a certain feature is a fallacious, and flat-out wrong, mindset. With conversation now completely deteriorating,

Unifex took control of the conversation and spoke about POSes. Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”."

So this makes it sound like POSes are not important and not going to get attention.

In the interest of being fair and balanced I would like to point out to my fellow players that nothing from a game developer should be taken as a promise until there has been a firm commitment to doing so. While there was a lot of talk from CCP about the revamp that obviously gave us all a lot of false hope, that talk was anything but firm.

To reiterate what I see is the problem here is not that they aren't doing them yet and (evidently) that they aren't working on them at all, but that they seem to see it as a problem that only affects "a small part" of the playerbase and so perhaps do not regard it as a higher priority item.

That is clearly very, very wrong.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Demyen
Araata-Teiva Kamloss
#1243 - 2013-01-17 17:20:21 UTC
I'm one of the many solo players talked about in the Summit minutes. I'm working right now on setting up my first little POS in highsec. Partly for gits and shiggles, partly for getting more into the manufacturing side of things, and partly to have a little space to call my own.

I was *really* looking forward to the POS redesign that's been bandied about for the last year or so.
AFLACK
ManyTargetsMuchAmmo
#1244 - 2013-01-17 17:20:53 UTC
Please!!!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF EVE PLEASE UPDATE THE POS SYSTEM!!!
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#1245 - 2013-01-17 17:22:02 UTC
I think that a POS rework would be to the benefit of most EVE players, not just a select few. /signed
Xel Set
Clan Shadow Wolf
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1246 - 2013-01-17 17:22:05 UTC
The next "big" thing in Eve I'm waiting for is a revamp to POSes, and it's long overdue.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1247 - 2013-01-17 17:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Man of courage! First dev to dare to face the crowd!!

As you have notice people really want this. and despite the fact that you can't make promises, they was already made along the years. We Just want to Know that there is someone working in it. Give us the name of the dev! And say to us that he will deliver to us more then we expect!

And remember to don't call us minority again. (That minority may become a hotdrop) Twisted
Kawa Ascot
Steelbikers
#1248 - 2013-01-17 17:22:15 UTC
Upgrade TwistedTwisted
Adam Aksyfar
Diversified Astronautic Solutions Group
#1249 - 2013-01-17 17:22:55 UTC
I POS.
T Nips
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1250 - 2013-01-17 17:23:01 UTC
FIX THEM
Dianabolic Statham
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1251 - 2013-01-17 17:23:18 UTC
we do live in a wh
we do need pos upgrades
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#1252 - 2013-01-17 17:23:27 UTC
mynnna wrote:
To reiterate what I see is the problem here is not that they aren't doing them yet and (evidently) that they aren't working on them at all, but that they seem to see it as a problem that only affects "a small part" of the playerbase and so perhaps do not regard it as a higher priority item.

That is clearly very, very wrong.


Very, very wrong indeed.
Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1253 - 2013-01-17 17:24:40 UTC
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If towers aren't revamped soon, there will be pitchforks and torches. This truly cannot come too soon. At this point, almost anything is an improvement to the current archaic system.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1254 - 2013-01-17 17:24:42 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE


It's been on the table and asked about for over 6 years now. CCP has stated alot of things over those years and has yet to deliver, only ignore. I doubt many are expecting an overnight miracle(especially when dealing with CCP) however continuing to delay doesn't strike much confidence within your customers. Hence the rage.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Thomas Hurt
Future Ventures
#1255 - 2013-01-17 17:25:04 UTC
bump
Thillery
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1256 - 2013-01-17 17:25:55 UTC
While I understand that revamping POSes entirely would require quite a lot of work, would it be possible to just fix SMAs so that they function similarly to CHAs in that you can secure sections of them? This would greatly help the players in W-space, as we currently have no good way of preventing corp theft, and are forced to use rather blunt measures to keep new players from being able to steal our stuff. This one fix would be greatly appreciated.
Meynn
EVE University
Ivy League
#1257 - 2013-01-17 17:26:34 UTC
A real POS redesign can not stop at the structures. For this project to make any sense CCP will also need to look into the corporate hangar system, corporate roles and titles as well as the corporate management system as a whole.
Casperus Infernus
Natural lifetime
#1258 - 2013-01-17 17:26:35 UTC
W-Space for POS-changes!!!
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#1259 - 2013-01-17 17:26:55 UTC
I would like to join this threadnought because I am really looking forward to POS being re-done. I think it should be one of current CCP's priorities, beside ring mining.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#1260 - 2013-01-17 17:27:17 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Sup Gargant (I've always meant to ask: did your name come from Final Fantasy IX?)

We understand and are on board with the quotes you cited. I myself have been championing "don't roll them out until you're ready" re: POSes for a while now. The reason this went from zero to rage is the statement that POSes affect a small group of players and how that influences their prioritizing. (see also: "The atmosphere was notably tense" and all that.) It didn't come off well in light of all of that praise of the tiny group of enablers and instigators. It made that praise ring hollow. Cue threadnaught.