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Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

First post
Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2012-12-25 16:56:28 UTC
All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked.
(A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly)

As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly.

For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed)

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#2 - 2012-12-25 17:00:53 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
the answer to AFK Cloaking


There is the problem, not understanding how the game should work.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2012-12-25 17:03:57 UTC
GTN wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
the answer to AFK Cloaking


There is the problem, not understanding how the game should work.

Absolutely.

A passive activity misleading active players needs to be addressed to restore game playability.

If someone is cloaking and active, and still wants to inspire terror, they should need to be more proactive in communicating the level of threat they are claiming.

Entering into chat that they are present, and possibly watching player X, makes things more interesting for all, I believe.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2012-12-25 19:06:39 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked.
(A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly)

As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly.

For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed)

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.

This would eliminate AFK Cloaking. The fact you cannot see a cloaked vessel in local removes any means for them to terrorize local pilots, by intent or otherwise.

It also is an enhancement to local, making it obvious who is actually active in system by the list of locatable ships being the sole members of the chat list.

Since you could not see cloaked ships anymore in local, it also removes the objections I heard to being able to hunt them.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2012-12-25 22:14:00 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Since you could not see cloaked ships anymore in local, it also removes the objections I heard to being able to hunt them.

This is effectively true. So long as information locating cloaked vessels inside the system is not given out for free.

Cloaking, at least the process leading up to the ship itself being cloaked, requires effort along with the right skills and hardware.

Balance requires comparable efforts to counter a tactic or effect. They either need to make a blind assumption and look for a cloaked vessel based on faith, or deduce it being present by clues and details.
Either way, they need a reason to hunt for a cloaked ship.

This meets the popular level of requirements often referred to for justifying the ability to hunt cloaked vessels.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#6 - 2012-12-26 14:09:04 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
All details being considered and weighted... It seems the answer to AFK Cloaking's terror aspect is to ignore it while they are cloaked.
(A cloaked vessel not being capable of inflicting damage directly)

As it is not currently possible to evaluate threat levels properly under the current system, I suggest we upgrade local to exclude vessels which are not capable of interacting with ships and objects directly.

For balance, I would deny these classifications from accessing local at all. Let them be sent chat information in a version of local missing the pilot roster, no free intel for them. (Fully delayed local for all pilots present but not listed)

The vessels which should fit this classification for full local exclusion I described:

Vessels within the shields of a POS (They cannot target or fire, AFK POS items are misleading)
Vessels docked at an outpost (They cannot target or fire, AFK Outpost items are misleading)
Vessels cloaked in a system (They cannot target or fire, AFK Cloaked items are misleading)

Upgrading local intel with improved relevancy in this manner will benefit players wanting to know the actual active players present.


The entire problem is that local already provides TOO MUCH intel. Nullbears disgust me, honestly worse than highsec carebears - at least they admit they're risk averse and play accordingly (i.e. in highsec)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2012-12-26 14:45:51 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The entire problem is that local already provides TOO MUCH intel. Nullbears disgust me, honestly worse than highsec carebears - at least they admit they're risk averse and play accordingly (i.e. in highsec)

You are correct.

But, if we get it to provide less intel, we solve two problems.

Null bears are bound and determined to use Local Chat as a source of intel. Regardless of how this lowers the bar on some aspects of gameplay, they have grown attached to this.
By eliminating items that confused them, they get the benefit of only needing to be aware of things they can affect, that can also affect them.

By curious twist, being visible in local chat is also what haunts people who are AFK, and wish to be ignored. With the exception of AFK Cloaking specifically, none of these want to advertise their presence.

If local is being used for intel, then let's include the proper limits for the benefit of gameplay.

Noone sees cloaked ships = noone feels threatened by cloaked ships. Cloaked vessels can still deliberately broadcast threatening messages in local, but they won't be mistaken for AFK either.

Same goes for people docked in an outpost, or lurking behind the shields of a POS.... no local for them to respond to, and they are out of touch to intel the same as they are out of touch to interacting via PvP.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#8 - 2012-12-26 15:54:23 UTC
To be honest, I think that Cloaking should simply do the following:

- When activating cloak, Local is turned off. You retain visibility of whats on Grid.
- When cloak is not active, Local is turned back on.

It is sensible that when you're activly using communications, you're visible, afterall your signals may be read, especially in near empty systems.

Thats about it really. Would solve 99% of the problems with "AFK" cloaking, and would allow Cloakers to be hunters if they sit at a beacon, cloak up and just wait.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#9 - 2012-12-26 16:20:29 UTC
Morgan North wrote:
To be honest, I think that Cloaking should simply do the following:

- When activating cloak, Local is turned off. You retain visibility of whats on Grid.
- When cloak is not active, Local is turned back on.

It is sensible that when you're activly using communications, you're visible, afterall your signals may be read, especially in near empty systems.

Thats about it really. Would solve 99% of the problems with "AFK" cloaking, and would allow Cloakers to be hunters if they sit at a beacon, cloak up and just wait.

With the exception of one detail, you are suggesting pretty much the same as I am regarding cloaked vessels.

That detail being local's total removal. I am advocating for it to be shifted to total delayed mode for cloaked vessels, with no pilot roster at all visible to them. They can be able to read chat comments, and post their own, but they will never see the roster so valued by those wanting it for it's intel capacity.

I am also advocating for vessels inside the shields of a POS or docked in an outpost to also be treated this way. Their is no reason they should enjoy immunity to PvP as well as this free intel with no risk.

To place a point on that detail, if you can see local chat's pilot roster, you can also be shot at by other pilots. Whether they follow this up or not is secondary to the fact it is possible for them to shoot, and be shot in return.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2012-12-27 14:47:33 UTC
Hey, null bears, you might want to seriously consider backing this idea.

Sure, the cloaked pilot becomes truly hidden.

BUT!
The moment he drops his cloak, you get your precious warning, and at a point where you will KNOW it has value.

And, as pointed out, if you want to be proactive, this does meet the popular terms often agreed on to permit some means of hunting cloaked vessels.
You can search the system you prefer as often as you like. It is in YOUR hands how safe you should be. How often should your defensive patrols be sent out?

Null is as safe as your efforts make it. If you did not accept the need for any effort, high sec may be where you fit in better.
Think it over...
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#11 - 2012-12-27 16:49:35 UTC
I like this idea, +1 all around.

The point of cloaking is not to be hidden, it is to never be seen. ( Yes there is a difference )
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-12-27 16:57:56 UTC
+1 for any idea that addresses local, the root of the problem, and not AFK cloaking, a symptom of the problem
Yelena Fedorova
#13 - 2012-12-28 20:45:53 UTC
Needs more +1's RAWR!
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#14 - 2012-12-28 21:20:13 UTC
Good basic idea. Simple and effective.

Not sure about excluding players that are docked or in a pos. Pos pilots can still operate guns, and docked pilots can... well, I guess they can undock :P They should show up on the guest list still at least.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2012-12-28 22:00:30 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Good basic idea. Simple and effective.

Not sure about excluding players that are docked or in a pos. Pos pilots can still operate guns, and docked pilots can... well, I guess they can undock :P They should show up on the guest list still at least.

If you are close enough to a POS to be affected by any guns, I doubt you need local pointing out the obvious.

As to undocking, well then, they would appear then, the same as someone logging in Lol
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2013-01-30 18:32:05 UTC
Mag's
Azn Empire
#17 - 2013-01-30 19:18:43 UTC
Missed this.

+1

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

RoAnnon
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-01-30 20:05:15 UTC
I don't see the need or full justification for eliminating docked pilots from local. For one, anyone in a station has access to even stronger comms systems than in a ship, and two, it's too easy to simply dock and see who's in station. I see no real point to remove them from local.

Beyond that one sticking point, I back this 100%.

+1

Cool

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#19 - 2013-01-30 20:07:30 UTC
Your idea about letting any pilot anywhere join any local chat channel was better.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#20 - 2013-01-30 20:10:59 UTC
Oh, man, I'm so going to take up cloaky ganking now...

Targets won't see me in local until I decloak on grid with them and slap a disruptor on them? Utterly brilliant. Having to chase them around the system is so much work.

Not to mention, how can any defensive fleet ever find me, if they can't see me? I could cloaky cyno in a gang of my friends without anyone having any warning whatsoever and gank even moderate fleets who have no chance of ever having a shred of intel on what's coming. Ever.

Admittedly, this may empty nullsec as people decide that there's no point risking anything given the impunity with which they can be attacked. The only people that will be left will be big alliances that have the acitivty to fly in permanent, large gangs that can fend off such attacks, but that's the way nullsec's been going for a while- nobody gives a crap about small gangs. They belong in hisec running incursions.

Oh, and I'm sure people would whine about it to no end. Can't people adapt by always selecting the incredibly overpowered option rather than insisting that a game should be 'balanced'?
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