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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

First post First post
Author
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#581 - 2012-12-05 15:53:56 UTC
[quote=Solarius Elrond][quote=Murk Paradox]
Quote:


The biggest issue with miners, is they want to afk mine in peace. They want to leave their computer for 50 minutes and come back to the game with an orebay filled. The reason I personally hate it (I don't care about personal problems, we all have them and deal with them) is because if I wanted to adopt that mentality, I'd park my exhumer up agaisnt some ice, hit my

...

I, for one, still have several characters/miners unsubbed during the ganking fiasco. I'll wait a bit to decide if I will revive those characters.

Lets see if any miner/player in an expensive mining ship/frieghter can be Bountied and then ganked for a profit. Eh CCP?


Nice long post. If I paid my money to CCP as a consumer (similiarly to these miners who will jump ship as you claim) for their "bottom line" as opposed to paying CCP for their content, you would have hit it spot on.

As it is, it's not my, or your (I'm presuming here, apologies) concern either.

It is nice to be able to accuse with kneejerk responses however, you know, calling people "exploiters" because you think something is unfair. But unfortunately, it is still ice miners who are griping the most (my original post you responded to) because ore miners aren't really getting bumped all that much. Atleast not enough to create such a concern. And why? Because, quite simply, they are at their computers. They are being active.

Is this against CCP's rules or a standard set by them? Don't know don't care. It is a standard set by the Code. And that is emergent gameplay yes. Very much player created. Which is what Eve is.

We can argue as much as we like, but again, my original stance is Freewill at the highest regard. And that means you are free to afk mine that ice, and I am free to bump you.

Unless CCP tells me I cannot.


This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2012-12-05 16:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Why don't we deal with something more meaningful like the general hate speech/slurs/harassment towards females, gays and every other minority in the game.

That this is considered harassment, this miner bumping, which I've witnessed a bit, cheapens the meaning of true harassment. This is a game. Have a problem? Face it, walk around it, ignore it or run away but please don't play Big Brother CCP and please fix the true problems in Eve.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#583 - 2012-12-05 16:02:17 UTC
Benny Lava wrote:
Bumping is not an exploit. It is a game mechanic. What James 315 and minerbumping .com has turned this mechanic into an exploit to harass players he views as playing the game in a manner he does not like. His targets are players that prefer to spend their time in the game to mine resources. There are no other targets.

Definition of Harassment: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment)
Harassment covers a wide range of behaviors of an offensive nature. It is commonly understood as behavior intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive. In the legal sense, it is intentional behavior which is found threatening or disturbing.

New Order claims to go after AFK and bot mining. There are plenty of screen shots on their site that he goes after all miners. “Mining Permit” is not a game mechanic. It is not something CCP offers on Eve market. It is a tool invented by James 315 to justify the harassment. He is not CCP. He is a player of Eve, customer of CCP, like everyone else in this thread. If CCP does not like AFK mining, they will put an end to it. Creators of the game are the true judges, not other players. This thread would never exist if “minerbumping” was practiced in low/null sec only. Any players that play the game in low/null sec has accepted a very high rate of interaction with other players that is not “Carebear” style. Those that want a very lively game will go to these systems. Those that want to play Eve in a vanilla style, stays in high sec.

I believe this is a social problem that CCP needs to fix at the customer level, not the game mechanic level.



I think you missed an integral stay in Rookie Help when the volunteer Mods continously remind you that no place in Eve is "safe".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Trin Again
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#584 - 2012-12-05 16:11:18 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Why don't we deal with something more meaningful like the general hate speech/slurs/harassment towards females, gays and every other minority in the game.

That this is considered harassment, this miner bumping, which I've witnessed a bit, cheapens the meaning of true harassment. This is a game. Have a problem? Face it, walk around it, ignore it or run away but please don't play Big Brother CCP and please fix the true problems in Eve.


Because this is a thread about miner bumping.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#585 - 2012-12-05 16:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Trin Again wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Why don't we deal with something more meaningful like the general hate speech/slurs/harassment towards females, gays and every other minority in the game.

That this is considered harassment, this miner bumping, which I've witnessed a bit, cheapens the meaning of true harassment. This is a game. Have a problem? Face it, walk around it, ignore it or run away but please don't play Big Brother CCP and please fix the true problems in Eve.


Because this is a thread about miner bumping.


My point is that all things considered -- and using a tad bit of perspective -- how could one view miner bumping and its related activities as harassment. Therefore, I believe my statement is apropos.
Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2012-12-05 16:15:53 UTC
Quote:

It is nice to be able to accuse with kneejerk responses however, you know, calling people "exploiters" because you think something is unfair. But unfortunately, it is still ice miners who are griping the most (my original post you responded to) because ore miners aren't really getting bumped all that much. Atleast not enough to create such a concern. And why? Because, quite simply, they are at their computers. They are being active.


Typical belligerent undesirable response. You scum interfere with ANYONE'S gameplay. Even if they are at the keyboard, which has been noted multiple times here. You harass miners, afk or not, and prevent them from playing.

Quote:
Is this against CCP's rules or a standard set by them? Don't know don't care. It is a standard set by the Code. And that is emergent gameplay yes. Very much player created. Which is what Eve is.

Eve is about positive creation of content. Your "content," i.e. HARASSMENT, is targeted and pushes individuals out off Eve. That is detrimental and not emergent gameplay.

Quote:
We can argue as much as we like, but again, my original stance is Freewill at the highest regard. And that means you are free to afk mine that ice, and I am free to bump you.


So you're free to harass miners? Think again. You are the type of player detrimental to Eve's long term life.

Quote:
Unless CCP tells me I cannot.


I hope they do.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#587 - 2012-12-05 16:19:23 UTC
Benny Lava wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Actually if you had bothered to read the website you would have noticed that while AFK miners and bots are the main focus, nowhere is it stated that at the keyboard miners are exempt from permits. What James 315 has done is laid claim to certain solar systems and introduced a licencing fee for mining in those systems, CCP promote Eve as a game where player driven content and emergent gameplay are encouraged, James 315 is providing both of these. The fact that these systems are in hisec is completely besides the point. Hisec is not exempt from emergent gameplay, nor should it be, past examples include the Jita Riots, Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, and the Gallente Ice Interdictions.

The Eve universe is promoted by CCP as a dark and dangerous place, the Eve universe includes hisec as well as losec, nullsec and whspace. If hisec wasn't meant to be dark and dangerous, albeit safer than other areas of Eve, they would have placed it on another server.


I've read the website, and had one on one conversations with followers of the site. I noticed I'm on it as an example of one that does not follow their views. Take the content of the site anyway you want, bottom line is James 315 is using a game mechanic to harass other players that is playing the game in a fashion he does not like.



We aren't bullies taking the school geek to the bathroom for a swirly. If other people follow the same path but are more malicious in nature.. well... welcome to Eve I guess.

Just remember when you login for the first time of the day, right by your name there is a X players online. You fill find plenty of various of types of people who will scam, and cheat, and lie, and gank, and bump, and fight, and canflip, and mission, and explore and and and...

There is no 1 rule except for whatever CCP tells you.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Construticon
KittyPorn
#588 - 2012-12-05 16:23:23 UTC
I cannot believe this thread is still going and half if not more of the posts are people (miners) whining and complaining. You have been told several times how to mitigate the risks of being bumped. I personally used various methods and would challenge the bumpers to try and bump me. They almost always obliged and I was entertained watching the misses and even had a mach the could not bump me. Eventually a stabber found the right angle and bumped me. I enjoyed the 40 minutes it took to bump me out of range and managed to only miss one cycle. The New Order enjoyed the challenge as well and continued mining ice after dropping my haul off in station. If you don't want to worry about the bumping and ganking then pay the 10m ISK. You are largely left alone. Now I have seen some miners get ganked by fellow miners alts when it became public that they paid for the "permit". Now that is an entirely different issue. With my long winded post I'm done with this thread I cannot read anymore for fear my eye will start bleeding and I might actually want to pod some of the


I am ashamed to be lumped into the whining and mining group. I'm giving up mining and going back sit in station and build ships and equipment. I no longer can be lumped into the same group as the whining mining group.
SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#589 - 2012-12-05 16:23:56 UTC
Rodtrik wrote:
....
I like how carebears cannot be "fountains" by your definition. Who builds up industry? Who gets the materials to build ships and ammo and stations?...


I'd like to argue on your on your point on the "fountains" as admiral root put it so eloquently. The big difference is, no player would notice if the pearl clutching AFK bot-aspirant miners would be one day replaced with real NPCs, mining away, filling the markets with their products. You wanted to minimize your interaction with the rest of the player base and have quite successfully done so.

You generate new content for no-one. No stories are told about your heroic deeds. Indeed, I'd say a only very specific minority has ever joined this great game to do "mining" in "highsec" - the isk selling bots.

What draws the global media coverage and thus a great number of new people in the game are all the countless shenanigans perpetrated by different communities of players. Who did the great scam? Who was the dread pirate?

Who was the most afk miner? No. Nope. You are boring, the epitome of poop-socking grinder, toiling away pointlessly rock after rock.

CCP needs every subscription, and a such, has catered your ever increasing demands for change. Still, at some point, a line must be drawn. Even you have to adapt and accept that other people play this game.

I hope it will happen before Eve changes into something we do not recognize anymore.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#590 - 2012-12-05 16:25:23 UTC
Nanatoa wrote:
Odelleger wrote:
A question was posed to me by one of the "agents" and the point has been stated in this thread as well: Do I want to take away their fun? Yes. Absolutely yes. This game changes, things you got away with doing no longer work, you adapt.

Case in point: Stealing from something that isn't your will flag you as a target for anyone that happens across your path for the next 15 minutes with the coming patch. Previously (and until the patch) my source of ISK has been from stealing. After the patch I can either change my source of ISK, or adapt to the changes.

Many actions which formerly left you relatively protected are being stripped, why not add bumping to the list? Most of the Crimewatch changes are hisec affecting, which is where bumping is employed as well.


I would agree with the "adapt" principle, but in this context it is ludicrous.
You seem to assume CCP will take action to nerf bumpers and that the bumpers will have to adapt. But you conveniently forget that this thread is a consequence of miners refusing to adapt. Examples abound (I won't list them here, they've been mentioned in this thread often enough) where miners prefered sticking to their max-yield fits and 'tactics', successfully relying on CCP to intervene on their behalf instead of adapting to the situation.



Funnily enough, that's what bumpers do too! HighSec is cool like that. 0 discrimination from Concord.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

SaKoil
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#591 - 2012-12-05 16:27:08 UTC
Tali Ambraelle wrote:

Eve is about positive creation of content. Your "content," i.e. HARASSMENT, is targeted and pushes individuals out off Eve. That is detrimental and not emergent gameplay.


What content have bot-aspirant afk miners ever created?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#592 - 2012-12-05 16:48:25 UTC
Solarius Elrond wrote:
Nyaris Wolfe wrote:
To be honest at this point I think we should leave it just as is. Just to see if Anslo's head would actually explode.

Rage issues!!!!


Seriously though, I don't particularly mind there being a counter to bumping, seriously. I don't. But I remain steadfast on the point Mallak made. Make them have to think about it


Lets be open and honest here. Miners aren't exactly deep thinkers. Mining is boring. If they want to avoid this stuff at least make it interesting, interactive and have a skill requirement. That'll seperate the men from the bots eh!



Hmm. Mining with no skills is a stupid waste of game time.
Skillful mining is not a waste of time.
The time invested in maxing out your mining skills for either the Orca or Hulk is substantial and the cost of the implants to top those skills off is in the billions at this time.
The return for the time and isk invested in Max mining skills and implants/ships is the ability for a single individual with two accounts to pay for both accounts using plex earned from mining, provided enough time is spent in game. Such players are generally not interested in pvp and CCP knows this. Else they would not have included mining as a profession in the game and just made Ore available on the market for manufactures to buy at fixed prices.

Mining ore is the base of the game economy. No ore or ice means no manufacturing etc . The economic ripples are game changing. (No pun intended)
The generally passive activity of mining is essential to the game. For most miners it is marginal in income until the much higher skill levels are reached.

So, YES, it is a fact of life miners unsub rates are higher than any other group or style of player in the game and if that rate climbs the game is negatively affected. CCP income is affected so they take action. Or had you not noticed the last "balancing"?

Honestly, stop with the hand wringing and panic about potentially losing your clever exploit of a game mechanic. Since this exploit of existing conditions of permitted play also has the potential to severely affect the entire game if left unchecked
then the liklihood of CCP addressing the situation is very high.

Mining in HiSec is a marginal profession at best for most players, or a major investment for others. Disrupt it sufficiently and lower skilled minerplayers will leave the profession and possibly the game. And higher skilled and heavily invested players will simply withdraw from the game entirely since their enjoyment is ruined.

HiSec was not created to be a totally safe sandbox. It was created to be a safer sandbox than low or null and even then has degrees of safety built in from 1.0 to 0.5.

HiSec was also created to allow even the passively inclined player have a place to learn about Eve and be persuaed to invest real dollars and personal time in the game. Is CCP ready to abandon that market share of the gamers on the net? Is CCP so socially naive as to be blind to the affect uncontrolled protection rackets can have on a society, especailly and artificial one Like EVE?

The disdain aggressive players have for "carebears" is foolish. They are an essential segment of the player base and the game economy depends on their predictable and steady production.

So enjoy this kind of extortion while you may. But please, stop with all the self justifications. They aren't necessary. What bumpers are doing is perfectly permissible currently. However if not corrected by CCP eventually more and more players will get involved in bumping and fewer and fewer players will be involved in mining. It is a social inevitablility. And, as in real life it will ulitmately cause a huge economic disruption, both in the game and of the games viablity in the pc gamer marketplace.

It might be interesting to start a pool betting on how long it will take CCP to make some kind of adjustment. Or alternatively, how long will it take for the application of this exploit to cause visible effects on the games economy. Maybe use the benchmark of Trit hitting 10 isk?



Have you counted how many belts are in highsec? I don't think EVERY belt would be able to be covered if even just 1 goon handled each belt. Let alone trying to say Code enforcers can. Tunnel vision is defeating you sir.

Now excuse me while I unsub because I can't margin trade/canflip/anyothersimple1task.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#593 - 2012-12-05 17:02:54 UTC
Anslo wrote:
1) You continue to verbally harass and target specific miners and prevent them from playing the game
2) James 315 continues to blog about specific miners, target them, and foster hate mongering ideologies towards high-sec
miners in order to spur forth more hate-based action against them.
3) The "code" is written in a derogatory manner that encourages trolling and hate against a specific subset of players

That's a bit more accurate Smile


  1. We continue to target all miners in our systems who don't pay us and make it harder for them to play the game in the way they want. Not impossible, though. That's EVE for you; someone else will come and mess up your gameplay. As it should be.
  2. He continues to write funny posts about them. James does not advise or ask anyone to target the miners who are featured on www.minerbumping.com
  3. The Code is a piece of RP that discriminates against a certain profession, yes. So? It's not hate-mongering.


Anslo wrote:
All of which are duct tape fixes that still don't stop the continued, targeted, and belligerent behavior of the bumpers.

Our fixes are not duct-tape fixes any more than fitting a tank on your ship is a duct-tape fix against gankers. If you honestly believe that the only 'real' fix is one that CCP provides for you, you're playing the wrong game.

Anslo wrote:
Eve is indeed a game where a fiery clash of ideals and goals come together in bullets and steel. Each action has a consequence. Yet your's do not? You complain about why miners should be immune to your griefing? Well, why should you be immune from real, non-CONCORDable, effective retaliation? You people continue to taut risk vs reward around, yet your risk seems minimal.

Yet another hypocrisy of the bumpgeois thugs. Wanting all the griefing abilities, yet no risk. Sound familiar?

We should be immune from non-Conordable retaliation because so are you. You can bump us if you like; we'll only use the mothods we've told you all about to stop you :)

Anslo wrote:
Not only are you an "agent," but you're one of the most outspoken. Not only outspoken, but outspoken in some of the most irksome and word twisting ways by hiding behind the veil of civility and (failingly) preventing others from seeing your true nature of promoting griefing among players. Eve "being more" does not constitute increased griefing and thug-like behavior. This unwarranted and unchecked behavior is what would drive people away from Eve, making it LESS (i.e. the thing you wish to prevent).

:words:

Verbal abuse is not wantsome player interaction.

Pretty sure that that above is 'verbal abuse'. Also, what is 'wantsome'?

Anslo wrote:
If you were a proud Eve player, you would see your actions hurt more than help. The wars, Burn Jita, the heists, the capital fleets, the Incursions, the industry, the market, the pew, even the mining, everything that makes Eve what it is both PvP and PvE should indeed make you proud. Bumping is not a part of Eve, it's a reaction from griefers who were upset they couldn't easily gank barges anymore ("i want no risk and all the gank reward!" Sound familiar yes?). Bumping is not what Eve is about.

No, bumping certainly is a part of EVE. It's the gankers who got their activity nerfed adapting to the situation rather than whining and complaining to CCP. Now we're nerfing your activities. Adapt, broseph.

[qupte=Anslo]When an outside hears about Eve, he should be hearing about a grand and diverse universe filled with limitless potential, not some bitter vets vendetta against miners that keeps them from enjoying their game play.[/quote]He should be hearing about a universe where he has the potential to do anything he wants, and if someone tries to stop him; **** them. He should use his wits and abilities to prevent them from stopping him.

He shouldn't go crying to the devs.
CCP Falcon
#594 - 2012-12-05 17:11:02 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
This thread will run for one week, until 17:00 on Wednesday, December 5th, after which I will close it. I will then gather responses, opinions, questions and feedback from it, before forwarding it on to the Senior GMs for review, who will then provide a response.

Bear in mind that this is an issue we would like to consider from all angles, and is also being dealt with over the holiday season. As such, a response may take some time to be issued, and may end up arriving just after the New Year.


This thread is now closed, and the questions and comments here will be collated and delivered to the GM Team for review.

Do not create further threads regarding bumping, they will be treated as spam, and locked.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

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