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A new commercially viable mining hauler.

Author
Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-11-15 17:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mohini
Hello all, I have checked through the forums and I have found some threads relating to mini haulers that are similar to this but not really the same.

The market gap/problem.

The two mining support ships, the Rorqual and Orca, are fantastic ships and do there roles very well. I don't think there is a problem with either of these ships at the moment.

The problem is what they are used for, this concerns low sec and 0.0 sec mining a little more. The best way I can explain the problem would be to pretend eve was real, If there was a mining corporation that could potential design and use any ship that was possible to make they would use the the Rorqual or something similar to be there support ship. It handles boosting very well, it can seige itself and use the industrial core to compress ore and it can jump without the use of gates.

The problem comes when picking up ore from the belts. A real life corporation would never ever consider using something as specialized as a Rorqual to simply grab some ore and dump it in the station. A large portion of miners use Rorquals for there boosting and have separate Rorquals for hauling. nearly every gadget in the Rorqual is completely useless for hauling between belt and station. Corporations would almost certainly design a ship thats only focus was on this task.

What I am proposing.

A new ship

Firstly I would like this to be a balanced ship I don't want it necessarily increasing the yield of mining but perhaps just decreasing the loses involved. However ISK gain/loss is not the purpose of bringing a new ship into the mining world.

The ships would be built only on the need for hauling Ore/Ice from belt to station. A short range hauler.
The only concerning factors would be. Speed, Cargo size, Armour/shield Cost (and since this is a game skill time).

This the kind of ship that would certainly be built in the "real world eve".

Ingame i think the reason to bring this ship out would be to allow players to specialize more, I know several people who own 3 rorquals and use one for mining bonuses one for hauling ore from belt to station/POS and one that sits in the belt repairing hulks and picking up ore. It would be fantastic to see one of those roles become more specialized. Its uses would be for both single characters in corps to multi account owners. The main advantage this ship would have over the Rorqual would be increased speed and decreased cost similar to how the Orca and Rorqual compare. Although as iv said previously this ship is not about having a disadvantage or advantage its about creating a more realistic game and making something new in eve. Filling a gap.

Stats/Attributes.

Speed/agility: about the same speed as the orca.

Cargo hold: 500m3, i think its important to create a pure mining ship thats the point of this post to create a specialized ship and if the cargo hold was 50k + it would be used as a normal freighter.

Ore Hold: 350k m3, obviously the most important part of the ship and possibly the most difficult to dictate. Id love a giant freighter ship that could fly in and grab 20 miners ore all at once but this would be over powered and a macro miners wet dream. I think this needs to be slightly under what a rorqual can achieve.

Highsec/low sec. Similar to the reasons a rorqual can't fly into high sec i think the same rules will have to apply to avoid macro miners abusing this ship.

Fitting: Low amount of slots but just enough to be able to put a personal touch on it. I think possibly 1 low slot 3 medium slots.

Shield vs Armor: Undecided. although fitting suggests shield.

Jump capability: Now i think it could be interesting to have a very short range jump to allow people to collect ore from 2-3 jumps away for corporations that mine in several locations. but I'm not sure.

Skill training amount: I feel that ship would not be up to the same level as the Rorqual so i think it should require less skills. It would seem appropriate to use the ORE industrial skill at level V, I don't think it would make sense to have any mining barge skills involved or class specific freighter skills so this seems like a great choice of skill. I think it needs a decent investment of time so advanced spaceship command 1 to add time on to the train along with possibly mining V or IV although i don't know if again that would be a strange to need to know how to mine to use a non mining ship. Of course navigation skills would be needed if it where to have jump capabilities.


I would love to hear your suggestions and comments on this idea. It would be great to have some more thoughts on how this ship would work. and what benefits and disadvantages it can bring to eve.

This is my first suggestion I have made but i hope it gets heard.
Jazboc
Shadow Legion X
The Bastion
#2 - 2012-11-16 00:00:44 UTC
I approve this message :) A good idea in my opinion so think it up ccp! :)
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#3 - 2012-11-16 09:42:40 UTC
There is a big gap between the industrials, the orca and freighters. Not had any experience with rorqals so I can't comment. But it would be good to see those gaps filled and it certainly seems probable that ORE would be the one to fill it.
Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-11-16 15:37:41 UTC
I think the basis of both are threads is that.

1. There is a lack of a dedicated ore hauling ship that isn't a support/booster.
2. There's a lack or ORE Industrial ships and an Ore hauler would fit perfectly into this gap.

Please CCP :)
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5 - 2012-11-16 16:08:33 UTC
In real life, companies would simply use something like the current industrials and a few extra drivers to haul their ore to station.

I'm not saying I would not like to see a better hauler, (in my case one specifically that could haul four or five fully fit battleships around, with a decent cargo bay for fittings so that when I decide to jump station for a new missioning territory I do it in one trip) just that real companies use dumptrucks for this, not big rigs.

To keep the analogy alive though, they also use railroads for dedicated extreme hauling. Be neat if you had a version of jump drive technology that let you set a small ship at either end of an inteded pipeline and shoot giant cans through it. Kinda like a Cyno, but just for moving unmanned masses of stuff.
Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-11-16 16:26:28 UTC
Railroads... Your right that sounds like the kinda thing that would for sure be used. I love the idea of jumping cans from Cyno to Cyno, however in eve it might be a litle Op, however it might nice for small gangs to come and intercept.

About the use of current industrials. I think it would be likely they use a frieghter but this isn't an option ingame so a new ship needs to be made.

Also pilots are much harder to get than ships in eve where in life it might be the other way round. Essentially a load of itt Vs hauling ore would be the equivalent to lorrys.

And yes it's a pain when you have to move systems with 3-4 bs when missioning. :)
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#7 - 2012-11-16 16:40:32 UTC
How OP the Mass Jumper (for lack of a better name) would be depends entirely on how long it takes to do it's thing.


Imagine you had to deploy and anchor it in pairs. It's got BS like HP. You can't take it back up unless it's empty. Once a cycle starts it cannot be stopped, simply destroyed, whereupon it drops it's cargo module with a random amount of whatever you loaded into inside.

Upon activation it takes 10 minutes to cycle, and advertises it's use like a cyno at both ends. For extra fun, hitting with with a scrambler suspends, but does not end the cycle timer.

You would have to sit on it to make it safe, probably with a small logi fleet if someone was determined to kill it.
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#8 - 2012-11-16 18:43:45 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
In real life, companies would simply use something like the current industrials and a few extra drivers to haul their ore to station.

Mohini is correct, ships are ten a penny, pilots are not. I'm guessing you've never heard of 'Road Trains'. In Australia, the US, Argentina, Canada and many other courties with large open land masses it is not uncommon to use a single tractor unit to pull a large number of trailer units. Drivers need to be trained, they need to rest and they need to be paid. Trailers do not. So contrary to your statement, companies do not in fact simply send more drivers, they send bigger vehicles.

Every company will endevour to procure the means to efficiently transport its product and/or materials to and from destinations. This means making as few trips as possible with an appropriatly sized mode of transport. Lets look at the industrial revolution. Previously, everything was transported via road or river where possible. River transport was only viable where nature allowed. Road travel was arduous and inefficient, only carts pulled by horses carrying small amounts. Then came the canal. A man made 'river' which allowed use of barges pulled by a single horse to move loads that would have previously taken 20 or 30 times as many horses as well as all the men needed tto direct and care for the animals and the loads. This was a great leap ahead, only to be eclipsed by the invention of the steam locamotive. Trains became able to move colossal amounts of cargo, far more than the canal barges could ever have possibly moved. This has continued to the point where we now move cargo world wide in container ships that move around 15,000 containers at a time, moving a potential total of 495,000 m3 of cargo.

History lesson aside, it is very likely that wealthy specialist companies like ORE would fill their own hauling needs, rather than use other vessels made by rival companies. The Orca is a fleet boosting ship. It's abilities are wasted in the role of a hauler. Freighters can move vast quantities at a time, but they are overkill for short journeys just to move ore.

I do feel that there is a niche that can be filled here, and it would be great to see it filled by a ship using the ORE Industrial skill. I also know I am not alone in this thought.

That said, specialised ore containers would go a long way to assisting with fulfilling this need.
Mole Guy
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-11-16 19:54:14 UTC
this is an outstanding idea.

i dont know about all the timers and whatnot, but a normal jump cyno would be good.
it holds very little cargo, but large ammounts of ore, thats gimp enough, you dont need to gimp its jump.
i would give it the range of the black ops right now. all u need is a normal cyno and away it goes.

somewhere in the 350km3-500km3. that way it can hit a field, tractor all the jet cans from the hulks and shuttle them to station, or jump em out.

bitchen idea...!
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#10 - 2012-11-16 21:54:30 UTC
Am I right in thinking freighters can't 'pick up' from cans in space, they can only be loaded in a station or hanger?

I'm sure someone told me so at some point, I may be wrong.

Anyway, if that is the case, then moving said 350k+ m3 of ore is still going to be a pain, especially with a great big advert that si the cyno...
Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-11-17 17:47:54 UTC
Yes Freighters can only pick up from stations or hangers. The main reason for this I believe is because CCP don't want people to be able to pick up there ore from there 20 macro mining hulks.

Taking this into account this ORE Industrial Ship will ofc be used by afk/macro miners but it needs to essentially be the not much more advantages than the orca.

The reason that i posted this would likely be a 0.0 and low sec ship is that there isnt such a high demand for a ship like this in high sec. If it where able to be used in high sec it would only be able to have (40k _ 50k _90k) 180k cargo hold to not be larger than the orca where as if it followed the same rules as the rorqual in low sec it could have as much as the rorqual.

As many people know the rorqual is an expensive ship thats slow and big. This hauler would be slightly less expensive (due to not having all the gizmo's on the rorqual) It could potentially having a larger tank as well since it doesn't have to have more than 1 high slot it effectively could just have a giant shell around it similar to the armar ships "armor".

In high sec there isn't as much need for a faster/cheaper/stronger hauler.

OTHER IDEA:

Also I would like to note another idea i had about the way the lorries in Ausie land works is that possibly you could have a hauler similar to a Iteron V (they look modular as if each cargo bay is an added extra) You could have an ORE hauler with modules, rigs or subsystems that actually add both to the ore hold and to the size of the overall ship.

The base ship would cost around 300-400m

Baring this in mind a teck 3 ship sounds like it could work well with. ...(i don't know all that much about teck 3 ships)
5 Subsystems.
the first subsystem would dictate speed/vs tank or something like that, essentially a defense/combat subsystem.

Each of the next 4 subsystems have a penalty to speed and agility so the starting speed-agility would be fairly high on the ship. possibly a warp out time of around 5 seconds and a top speed of arround 250m3 (there would be very little point to using this ship without the subsystems other than transporting the ship itself

1
a) 25% bonus do speed and agility
b) 25% bonus to shields
c) 10% bonus to subsystems
COST 100m

The next 4 would all be cargo bays.
The ship would start with only a normal cargo hold of 5k (to hold essentially mining equipment)

2
a Ore Industrial subsystem 50kk m3 ORE hold
b Ship maintenance bay 100km3
c Mineral bay 10km3
COST 100m

3
a Ore Industrial subsystem 75kk m3 ORE hold
b Ship maintence bay 200km3
c Mineral bay 25km3
COST 150m

4
a Ore Industrial subsystem 100kk m3 ORE hold
b Ship maintenance bay 500km3
c Mineral bay 40km3
COST- 250m

5
a Ore Industrial subsystem 150kk m3 ORE hold
b Ship maintenance bay 1Millionm3
c Mineral bay 75km3
COST 750m

From this you can see that the first 4 subsystems are relatively inexpensive when compared to fifth. Making the entire cost of the ship 900m without the 5th subsystems and 1b650m with it.

This would create 2 very different setups of this ship. An expensive and inexpensive option. This is also why the last subsystem is the largest increase.

This ship would NOT require the ORE industrial skill however the subsystem might but probably best not too. It will be a continuation of the industrial haulers and there would be a ship for each race with different abilities and specifications.

This ship could be specialized for carrying ore and your ships as was mentioned on this thread. It could also contain a normal cargo container subsystems. Theres also no reason why you couldn't mix the subsystems so if lets say you wanted to keep a tengu on your ship you could swap no.5 for a ship maintenance bay to allow you to take a ship out on a miner. If this ship where to carry normal cargo i think around 20k -50k- 75k-100k would be nice (this would be a non jumping, high sec capable ship) it could even have the subsystem no. 5 only use able in lowsec.

I still like the original idea of a simple ORE Industrial hauler. This is just a continuation of ideas for this ship.

What do you think people? :P








Mohini
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-11-30 00:58:07 UTC
bump
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-11-30 02:20:16 UTC
the problem is that the orca has a 400k m3 SMB and the retriever and mack got a 25-35k m3 ore hold in the meantime

make a module that converts the orca SMB into additional ore hold, and problem is solved

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