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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Majoring in Science: How Diversified Should I Be?

Author
Nuona
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-11-08 18:32:20 UTC
Since this is a long-haul type of game, I understand excelling in my field of choice will take some time. I'm curious: outside of the tutorials, how much skilling should I be doing for self-defense? Should I spend time getting into bigger ships with better survivability, or is that simply a waste if I'm not planning on specializing in warfare? I get that the game is all about PvP, but I'm not really planning to focus on the aspects of combat.

The game promos and ads say its best to specialize, but does that become a handicap?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2012-11-08 18:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
In my opinion, everyone should be prepared to do combat in at least a battlecruiser.

Lab rat alts can often be trained for non-combat duties like EWAR (intelligence > memory) or logistics.

My primary research character is a Tengu pilot (combat missions = standing for reprocessing and broker fees reduction) and a Basilisk pilot (logistics). Of course he is also a freaighter and jump freighter pilot, and is currently training towards Tycoon (trade).

I'm a bit of everything, but I consider myself to be an industrialist. I am currently training towards all T2 turrets.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-11-08 18:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
What exactly did you plan on doing and how much of it did you plan on doing personally? The answer to that will define what answers you get to the rest of your questions. Also the game is about PvP in the wide sense of the word. Everything you do is competition against other players and that is by design. You can play the game actively for years and be a part of large alliances without ever firing a shot in anger. As long as you contribute something to the communal effort, that is worthwhile to them, they'll be glad to have you. Every large entity will have industrial and logistics wings for example, that make sure the warmachine is maintained and can perform at peak efficiency.

I'll try to give some general answers for you in the mean time.

Skilling for survival/bigger ships? Skill enough to be able to do your thing succesfully and then all beneficial skills to levels, that don't take too much time. If you just need to travel safely without large amounts of cargo, small fast ships or covert ops cloaked ships should suffice. If you need to haul cargo, you need ships that can handle those demands. This is where your actual plans determine what you should train for. Also note, that bigger doesn't mean better or safer in EVE. It just means bigger.

Does specialization become a handicap? Yes and no. If you overspecialize, you can't do most things, so naturally it can become a handicap. On the other hand, if you try to specialize in everything, you'll suck at everything for a long time. It's a good plan for a beginner to specialize in something they enjoy at the start and train some outside skills on the side. Once you've mastered that thing or want to play something else, then you choose a new speciality.
Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-11-08 18:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson
Nuona wrote:
Since this is a long-haul type of game, I understand excelling in my field of choice will take some time. I'm curious: outside of the tutorials, how much skilling should I be doing for self-defense? Should I spend time getting into bigger ships with better survivability, or is that simply a waste if I'm not planning on specializing in warfare? I get that the game is all about PvP, but I'm not really planning to focus on the aspects of combat.

The game promos and ads say its best to specialize, but does that become a handicap?


The thing you have to remember, is that Eve is not just about combat PvP. Everything you do in Eve is PvP. Be that trying to suck up ore faster that that guy in a Mackinaw, who is killing the belt you are in, or getting into a nasty trade war on the markets, it's all PvP.

However, enoough of that leacture. As the other poster here said, focus on getting half good with a battle cruiser and that will give you a good foundation to build on.

If you are looking at the industry game, then use mining as a foundation, get to the level that you can fly and fit a Retriever.

Those I would say are your two foundations.

With a good skill set to fly both of those ships you are then pretty well set to develope into any direction you want in Eve.
J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#5 - 2012-11-08 19:16:05 UTC
Nuona wrote:
Since this is a long-haul type of game, I understand excelling in my field of choice will take some time. I'm curious: outside of the tutorials, how much skilling should I be doing for self-defense? Should I spend time getting into bigger ships with better survivability, or is that simply a waste if I'm not planning on specializing in warfare? I get that the game is all about PvP, but I'm not really planning to focus on the aspects of combat.

The game promos and ads say its best to specialize, but does that become a handicap?



First of all, I totally agree with Tau and Skillqueue.

After the tutorial, EVE is what you make of it.

But you need to be able to take a beating every now and then. So yes, you do want to be trained up to have some self defense.


But otherwise as you think, you don't HAVE to PvP if you really don't want too. Everything that you do or happens in EVE is because of choices you made.
PvP is fun and can be very expensive, yet it is also possible to do it in cheap ships.

And most of all, bigger =/= always better.

Sure you can fly a battleship, but do you have all the support skills trained, if not you will be easy prey.
Even when trained up, a fleet of frigates flown by players that know what they are doing can kill you.
Every ship in EVE has it's strengths and weaknesses, good players will know them and utilize them to their favour.
Also, unlike most new players think, in game SP doesn't make you a good player.

A 50mil SP character can have 1mil SP in combat related stuff, so your 4mil SP combat pilot can be better.
A 200mil SP character can be bought from the forums by someone who is RL rich, yet he doesn't know the game mechanics as he is new to the game. If you have 20mil SP but knowledge of the game, you will be better.

So in the end, specialization will help you. It won't limit you as you can ALWAYS start to train something else if you want to. But the most important thing in EVE in my opinion is your skills as a person (the ability to learn, the ability to adapt, etc).

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Nuona
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-11-08 19:38:22 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My primary research character is a Tengu pilot (combat missions = standing for reprocessing and broker fees reduction) and a Basilisk pilot (logistics). Of course he is also a freaighter and jump freighter pilot, and is currently training towards Tycoon (trade).

If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take to do all that, and if you'd permit a follow-up, did you train them in tandem?

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
What exactly did you plan on doing and how much of it did you plan on doing personally? The answer to that will define what answers you get to the rest of your questions. Also the game is about PvP in the wide sense of the word. Everything you do is competition against other players and that is by design. You can play the game actively for years and be a part of large alliances without ever firing a shot in anger. As long as you contribute something to the communal effort, that is worthwhile to them, they'll be glad to have you. Every large entity will have industrial and logistics wings for example, that make sure the warmachine is maintained and can perform at peak efficiency.ome outside skills on the side.

Stumbling in the dark here, can't really answer the topmost queston, other than the idea of building and working with materials sounds satisfactory. Manufacturing looks to be something that will require a clever supply chain, which in turn will require good Trade skills, while I haven't yet figured out the function of all the Science skills.

By the look of things it seems I should be training for combat in a battlecruiser before doing anything else, which is a slightly unpleasant surprise given the time involved.
Nuona
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-11-08 20:08:22 UTC
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:
The thing you have to remember, is that Eve is not just about combat PvP. Everything you do in Eve is PvP. Be that trying to suck up ore faster that that guy in a Mackinaw, who is killing the belt you are in, or getting into a nasty trade war on the markets, it's all PvP.

This is pretty awesome and is why I wanted to give it a whirl.

J'Poll wrote:
Sure you can fly a battleship, but do you have all the support skills trained, if not you will be easy prey.
Even when trained up, a fleet of frigates flown by players that know what they are doing can kill you.
Every ship in EVE has it's strengths and weaknesses, good players will know them and utilize them to their favour.
Also, unlike most new players think, in game SP doesn't make you a good player.

A 50mil SP character can have 1mil SP in combat related stuff, so your 4mil SP combat pilot can be better.
A 200mil SP character can be bought from the forums by someone who is RL rich, yet he doesn't know the game mechanics as he is new to the game. If you have 20mil SP but knowledge of the game, you will be better.

So in the end, specialization will help you. It won't limit you as you can ALWAYS start to train something else if you want to. But the most important thing in EVE in my opinion is your skills as a person (the ability to learn, the ability to adapt, etc).

So, perhaps it's 'specialize, then diversify your specialties', which sounds reasonable. Even so it's not 'in the end' I'm worried about so much as 'in the beginning.'
Blink
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-11-08 20:16:29 UTC
Nuona wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My primary research character is a Tengu pilot (combat missions = standing for reprocessing and broker fees reduction) and a Basilisk pilot (logistics). Of course he is also a freaighter and jump freighter pilot, and is currently training towards Tycoon (trade).

If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take to do all that, and if you'd permit a follow-up, did you train them in tandem?

Destination SkillQueue wrote:
What exactly did you plan on doing and how much of it did you plan on doing personally? The answer to that will define what answers you get to the rest of your questions. Also the game is about PvP in the wide sense of the word. Everything you do is competition against other players and that is by design. You can play the game actively for years and be a part of large alliances without ever firing a shot in anger. As long as you contribute something to the communal effort, that is worthwhile to them, they'll be glad to have you. Every large entity will have industrial and logistics wings for example, that make sure the warmachine is maintained and can perform at peak efficiency.ome outside skills on the side.

Stumbling in the dark here, can't really answer the topmost queston, other than the idea of building and working with materials sounds satisfactory. Manufacturing looks to be something that will require a clever supply chain, which in turn will require good Trade skills, while I haven't yet figured out the function of all the Science skills.

By the look of things it seems I should be training for combat in a battlecruiser before doing anything else, which is a slightly unpleasant surprise given the time involved.


Most science skills are useful and necessary for invention or researching blueprints. That is mainly relevant for doing tech 2/tech 3 production and getting the most out of unresearched tech 1 blueprints that you buy from NPCs. They also allow you to use R&D agents, which provide datacores, but you're better off buying them from the market. Don't train these skills blindly, since they are relatively costly and have very narrow areas where they are useful. Point being play the game and do things first. When you hit or notice a skill barrier on your road, then train for it.

I don't really see any use for a battlecruiser for an industrial character outside the standings grind, but you can do that by flying courier missions, that don't require any fighting. In those you move NPC given cargo(mission lvl decides the size) from one station to another. I have a industry/trade character closing to 90 mil skill points and I can't think of any use for battlecruisers in what I actually do. It won't allow you to do anything you want to do any better. It's a solid goal for every pilot looking to take part in combat activities in a good but cheap ship, but even then it's largely optional as cruiser and even frigate sized ships are viable in every combat theater EVE has. Ships I use with the industry character are mainly covops frigate, covops transport and a freighter.
Nuona
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-11-08 20:55:48 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Point being play the game and do things first. When you hit or notice a skill barrier on your road, then train for it.

Sounds like a nice organic approach. Now the trouble becomes how to choose a target for specialization. I've got some reading to do, it seems.

Thanks for all the advice, guys.
Smile
Esruc 'Sadim
Lazaretto
#10 - 2012-11-08 21:14:49 UTC
I'll just leave this here

Welcome to Eve

Insert something witty and clever here

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2012-11-08 22:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Nuona wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
My primary research character is a Tengu pilot (combat missions = standing for reprocessing and broker fees reduction) and a Basilisk pilot (logistics). Of course he is also a freaighter and jump freighter pilot, and is currently training towards Tycoon (trade).

If you don't mind my asking, how long did it take to do all that, and if you'd permit a follow-up, did you train them in tandem?

Basic Skills

If memory serves the rough order taken was:
* Research skills, so it could immediately start researching BPO.
* Manufacturing skills, so it could start manufacturing by the time some BPO were ready.
* Amarr Industrial 1, so it could move the stuff to market in a Humble Bestower: Largest Low-Skill Industrial
* Trade skills, so it could be more competitive and increase profit margin.
* T2 manufacturing and inventions skills to 4, so it could invent and build T2 stuff.
* T2 ship building skills.
* Industrial 5, to get into freighters and T2 industrials.
* Starbase Defense 4 for POS.
* Tengu (Strategic Cruiser), because at this time I was living in a wormhole and the research character wasn't, and I needed something to pass the time = missions in hisec. Can do level 4 missions in a cheap T2 fit ship.
* Basilisk (Logistics 5), since it uses many of the same skills as a Tengu, and useful for repping POS.
* Somewhere around here it became a Falcon & Scorpion pilot (all EWAR skills are int > mem)
* More Trade skills, and Science skills to 5.
* Freighter 5 (Charon).
* Jump freighter (Rhea).
* Drones. Starting with repair drones (for logistics).
All skills were trained with an intelligence > memory attribute mapping and +5 implants, so ship related stuff was much slower than optimal, but I really didn't mind given so few of the skill points are in ships.

I can't say on the time (get EVEmon and see for yourself), and still not completed training [i.e. one goal is all Science skills to 5].

This character is on a separate account. It earns the majority of my ISK [I own about 65 billion ISK of just BPO, so far and last time I bothered to do inventory]. However, it is capable enough to be a main character if I didn't have any other accounts.

It does PvE, PvP, missions, research, manufacturing, and trade. Doesn't mine, though does hauling in a Bustard from Orca to station. Might train Orca just for hauling more.
J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#12 - 2012-11-08 23:55:03 UTC
Esruc 'Sadim wrote:
I'll just leave this here

Welcome to Eve


Great link in that Esruc.

I would also suggest this for a nice read

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#13 - 2012-11-09 00:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
J'Poll wrote:
Esruc 'Sadim wrote:
I'll just leave this here

Welcome to Eve


Great link in that Esruc.

I would also suggest this for a nice read

Okay then I'll add:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2155469#post2155469

EDIT: Another good one http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Guide_to_using_EVEMon
Nuona
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-11-09 20:20:48 UTC
Thanks for all the links, they're helping a bunch.

One more thing: I'm reading a lot of recommendations to have a lab POS for my activities, and when trying to learn more, found this guide. Being pretty old, is all this info still accurate? Would you guys agree about the lab POS?
J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#15 - 2012-11-09 21:24:14 UTC
Nuona wrote:
Thanks for all the links, they're helping a bunch.

One more thing: I'm reading a lot of recommendations to have a lab POS for my activities, and when trying to learn more, found this guide. Being pretty old, is all this info still accurate? Would you guys agree about the lab POS?


Skimmed over that thread, and yes it's still correct.

Just keep in mind with a high-sec POS you need:

- To be in a player corp, you can't do it from a NPC corporation.
- On the moment of anchoring the tower that player corp needs to have the correct standings.
- Have a way to pay for the fuels needed for the tower.

**This involves Corporation to Faction standings, not personal standings towards a faction**

For a POS in 0.5 system you need 5.0 standings towards the owning faction.
For a POS in 0.6 system you need 6.0
For a POS in 0.7 system you need 7.0.

Above 7.0 isn't possible. 0.4 and below don't need standings, but keep in mind that is low-sec/null-sec so a bit more hostile and also capital ship space so taking down a POS becomes a bit easier.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-11-10 08:20:45 UTC
Nuona wrote:
Thanks for all the links, they're helping a bunch.

One more thing: I'm reading a lot of recommendations to have a lab POS for my activities, and when trying to learn more, found this guide. Being pretty old, is all this info still accurate? Would you guys agree about the lab POS?


The main problem you have is that NPC station based research facilities are pretty over subscribed, you can litrally wait weeks to find an available research slot in high sec. Running a mobile research lab at a POS is the way forward. However, and especially for a new player it's a prohibitably expensive thing to do on your own.