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Eve new player friendly? Questions. Ideas. Suggestions.

Author
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1 - 2012-11-08 08:24:45 UTC
I started playing Eve recently, and I'm curious if there's ever been any discussion to make Eve more new player friendly. The biggest problem I'm finding is that many corps look for players with 10-15 mil sp, and for a new player, that's about a year or so.

Unlike other MMOs, where I could just grind for several months to reach a competent level, skill wise, gear wise, etc., a similar path isn't available in Eve. One must literally wait it out.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that I can gain skills while not even being logged in. It works great for people who are busy, or students, etc., and it saves the inevitable comment of "why didn't you grind last weekend to get Skill V?"

But, there should be some mechanism to get newer players up to snuff faster. There is simply too great a divide between all the older, so-called "bittervet" players, and the new ones. I know personally that starting the game now, I feel like I'm at such a huge disadvantage simply due to my incredible lack of sp, comparatively speaking.

If there's no talk of a new-player skill system, I'd either propose 1) give new players 2x or even 3x skill point gains in the first 60-, 90- or 120- days, up to and maybe even 180 days. I'm sure many new players wouldn't mind if there was a plex cost associated with this, since technically you'd be getting more sp than offered "per month" (per plex, really).

I've read about the "it's ok, you can be new and be competitive with bittervets by specializing." That's a great argument, but it fails. It mainly fails by newer players not even knowing what he or she would like to specialize in. For alt generation, it's awesome. But for new players, not so much. Just think of it this way: when any older player reading this thinks back, you knew *for sure* what you wanted to do and thus specialized out of the gate? I didn't think so. :)

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2 - 2012-11-08 08:58:41 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
I started playing Eve recently, and I'm curious if there's ever been any discussion to make Eve more new player friendly. The biggest problem I'm finding is that many corps look for players with 10-15 mil sp, and for a new player, that's about a year or so.


When it comes to being useful and getting recruited, have you tried the corp finder? You can be useful to a PvP corp just as soon as you can fly a frigate and activate a warp scrambler (which is a maximum of 2 hours into the tutorial missions).

I'm surprised that PvP corps are turning back new players. Just keep looking!
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#3 - 2012-11-08 09:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Louis deGuerre
This has been and will be discussed endlessly and many improvements have been made over the years with better tutorials and especially the removal of learning skills.

You CAN specialize for most ships inside of two months and, considering you will then have all the basic required skills (see sig), will be able to quickly specialize in other ships.

T1 ships are fine, cheap and competitive compared to T2 and beyond. You don't NEED L5 skills to do most things in EVE, L4 is usually quite sufficient. Sure, you will be ca. 10% less effective vs L5 characters in the same ships but that is negligible. Gaming skill is way more important.

You can't blame the open ended game mechanics for players blundering around and changing their mind every week. There is nothing wrong with that, in fact I encourage players to try everything, how else will they know what career(s) they eventually want to specialize in ?

The major reasons people will not take in trials and very young characters is that they are often spy alts from veterans. Investing much time in a trial player who quits after two weeks is also not a popular vocation.
That said there are plenty of corporations specializing in taking in new players and training them up. I myself have spend a lot of time doing just this and it is very rewarding and a nice way to meet new friends. If you can't find a corporation to take you in then start your own and recruit likeminded pilots and learn together.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#4 - 2012-11-08 09:04:52 UTC
doublepost
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-11-08 09:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Maximus Andendare wrote:
I started playing Eve recently, and I'm curious if there's ever been any discussion to make Eve more new player friendly. The biggest problem I'm finding is that many corps look for players with 10-15 mil sp, and for a new player, that's about a year or so.

This is a "scare tactic" to keep the general rabble away.

If you talk to a recruiter and show that you are willing to learn, are competent, and generally a relaxed person... they will most likely accept you.
Remember, YOU want to be part of THEIR club!

Maximus Andendare wrote:
But, there should be some mechanism to get newer players up to snuff faster. There is simply too great a divide between all the older, so-called "bittervet" players, and the new ones.

This is a common complaint. One that can be easily dismissed with both a history lesson and a run down of what the skill system actually does.

History lesson first.
Back when EVE was brand new it WAS possible to "grind" up your skills the way you could in "traditional" MMOs. Simply que up a skill, perform an activity related to that skill, and the skill would time down faster.

However, players quickly found ways to exploit this.
For example... say you want to increase your skill level(s) in tanking and weapon systems. Easy. Simply get a friend (or alt character), fit up both of your ships so they can shoot and tank indefinitely, warp off to an isolated point in space, aggress each other, and then begin shooting and tanking each other. Go AFK.
CCP promptly removed this mechanic.

With regard to the how the skill system works...

- All skills cap at level 5. No matter how many years you have played the game, you cannot exceed that limit. And lower level skills (ex. [Racial] Frigate) are very quick to train relative to more advanced skills.

- Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.
Ex1: Someone you are facing has about 20 million SP, but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills.
Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.

- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4, you will find yourself flying at about 80 to 90% of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5.

- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (because it's faster).

- Ships and weapons have been balanced against one another.
Ex: A battleship can potentially instapop a frigate... but the frigate can fly very fast, making it difficult for the battleship's weapons to track, especially at very close range... then again, the battleship can deploy drones to deal with the frigate... and the frigate can shoot the drones down... however the battleship might have a Large Energy Neutralizer fitted to nuke the frigate's capacitor every 24 second... in which case the frigate could use a Small Nosferatu that sucks out capacitor every 3 seconds... etc. etc.


tl;dr...
- the point of the skill system is to force you to learn the game's mechanics and nuances in cheaper equipment and ships... that way when you DO gain access to more expensive equipment and ships, you know HOW to use them properly.

- High tech equipment (ex. T2, Faction, Officer, etc) will not give a player "I WIN" abilities. It simply gives a player a greater edge at an exponentially higher cost.
Ex: A group of three T1-fit frigates that cost about 500 to 800 thousand ISK CAN kill a faction frigate worth about 50 million ISK... provided they are using the right mods in the right configuration and know what they are doing.

- more SP is not indicative of a pilot's ability. It just means that the pilot has more options in what he/she can do.

- no one ship is superior to everything in the game. Even Titans, the largest ship in the game, has its Achilles heel; smaller ships.

Maximus Andendare wrote:
If there's no talk of a new-player skill system, I'd either propose 1) give new players 2x or even 3x skill point gains in the first 60-, 90- or 120- days, up to and maybe even 180 days. I'm sure many new players wouldn't mind if there was a plex cost associated with this,

There was a time when new players started out with 2x training speed. But that was removed for a variety of reasons... one of which was that CCP didn't want older players creating brand new alts and hyper-specializing them in short time frames.

You'll also find that a good many players in this game (both young and old) are opposed to the idea of "PLEX for SP"... or any variation thereof.

Maximus Andendare wrote:
I've read about the "it's ok, you can be new and be competitive with bittervets by specializing." That's a great argument, but it fails. It mainly fails by newer players not even knowing what he or she would like to specialize in. ...(snip)... when any older player reading this thinks back, you knew *for sure* what you wanted to do and thus specialized out of the gate?

No. I didn't know what to specialize in. I played around with different roles... toyed with the skill system... asked around... and eventually gained direction.
You're right in that the skill system is VERY complicated... but that is something CCP is addressing (hint: they are "streamlining" the skill system to make specialization easier).
Beyond that, it's up to the player to experiment.

And no... there is no such thing as "wasted SP."
Keno Skir
#6 - 2012-11-08 09:59:42 UTC
This comes up all the time. Honestly, there are LOADS of corps who will gladly accept new players. Some are sh*t and some are good, you just need to look and find your place. Contact me for a convo if u like, i know a few good ones.
J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#7 - 2012-11-08 10:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Maximus Andendare wrote:
I started playing Eve recently, and I'm curious if there's ever been any discussion to make Eve more new player friendly. The biggest problem I'm finding is that many corps look for players with 10-15 mil sp, and for a new player, that's about a year or so.

Unlike other MMOs, where I could just grind for several months to reach a competent level, skill wise, gear wise, etc., a similar path isn't available in Eve. One must literally wait it out.

Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that I can gain skills while not even being logged in. It works great for people who are busy, or students, etc., and it saves the inevitable comment of "why didn't you grind last weekend to get Skill V?"

But, there should be some mechanism to get newer players up to snuff faster. There is simply too great a divide between all the older, so-called "bittervet" players, and the new ones. I know personally that starting the game now, I feel like I'm at such a huge disadvantage simply due to my incredible lack of sp, comparatively speaking.

If there's no talk of a new-player skill system, I'd either propose 1) give new players 2x or even 3x skill point gains in the first 60-, 90- or 120- days, up to and maybe even 180 days. I'm sure many new players wouldn't mind if there was a plex cost associated with this, since technically you'd be getting more sp than offered "per month" (per plex, really).

I've read about the "it's ok, you can be new and be competitive with bittervets by specializing." That's a great argument, but it fails. It mainly fails by newer players not even knowing what he or she would like to specialize in. For alt generation, it's awesome. But for new players, not so much. Just think of it this way: when any older player reading this thinks back, you knew *for sure* what you wanted to do and thus specialized out of the gate? I didn't think so. :)


1.) Those SP minimums are there for a reason 99% of the time. Be it that you need to be able to fly certain ships (which means having a certain amount of SP), be it that they want you to be self sufficient (need to have some time under your belt, aka SP) or be it that you just can't manage what they do as a new player (good luck in a C6 WH with your frigate, it will be very hard for you to do stuff).

Other then that, it's mainly to prevent that others make a spy alt and don't invest time and money in it and drop it in a corporation they want to spy on.

But most importantly, SP limits are flexible. Say a corp wants 15mil SP minimum but you have say 8mil. Show the correct attitude and talk to them in their public channel and good chance that you will be accepted anyway. Corporations do look at SP, but it is attitude/personality that really matters. Most corps will be more happy with a good friendly pilot with less SP then someone with a lot of SP who is a PITA towards others.

And besides that, there are countless corporations that recruit new players or people regardless of SP amount. Do some research, look into the corp finding tool in game and here on the forum in the recruitment part.

2.) About your idea of faster skill training:

Quote:
Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
- Malcanis' law

If they increase training time for the first 180days, all you will do is help older players train more alts more quickly.

3.) Specializing helps, you don't have to specialize from the word Go. Just do it as soon as you found the thing you like. I personally specialized from the start as I knew what I wanted to be (at least for the first year, then stuff changed slightly). Though my alt started out as a general "jack of all trades, master of none", just to see if there were other things that I also liked to do. Don't be afraid to try things out.

You will never catch up in raw SP (unless a bittervet stops training his character), but as all skills are capped at level V you can easily become on par with them. Say you want to fly frigates, even though the other guy has 200mil SP, if both of your relevant skills are at level V you will be similar skilled for that ship, he just has more options available in other ships etc.

Also most of the times level IV will make you almost as good as that last training to level V will usually only at 3% / 5% bonus to your ship. So with IV you will be competitive.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

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Keno Skir
#8 - 2012-11-08 11:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
J'Poll wrote:
But most importantly, SP limits are flexible. Say a corp wants 15mil SP minimum but you have say 8mil. Show the correct attitude and talk to them in their public channel and good chance that you will be accepted anyway. Corporations do look at SP, but it is attitude/personality that really matters. Most corps will be more happy with a good friendly pilot with less SP then someone with a lot of SP who is a PITA towards others.


Very well put J'Poll i agree entirely.

Be friendly and show you can think for yourself. From a personal standpoint, my first concern regarding rank newbies isn't SP (obviously). What i look for first is an ability for self motivated learning. I'v found some players gain and gain SP but never learn anything in depth unless it's spelled out for them. Some people ask for advice and use it to fuel their own research and to fall back upon if they come to a confusing area. Others just ask, and ask, and ask every tiny thing all the way down to some of my personal favourites so far :

"what ship should i get" - Depends what it's for, they all do something.
"what is better a hurricane or a brutix" - Depends what it's for, better is a silly word :P

Preferable examples are :

"I want to do small gang pvp but feel my skill level might let me down, what ships might you suggest from Minmatar line-up?" - Start with a Rifter, then a Rupture then maybe consider a Hurricane later down the line. Well done for showing an interest and doing small amount of research for yourself.
"I can fly both ships fairly equally and my armor and shield skills are comparable, do you suggest a Brutix or a Hurricane for gate camps and other lowsec gang stuff?" - They are both very viable ships for the purpose. I suggest you have a think about what you would like to achieve from your fit. The hurricane is fast and agile, as well as very versatile. Where as the Brutix while packing way more tank and dps than the cane may not perform so well outside it's niche as the Cane does. Well done for pre-narrowing your options and not leaving every single decision up to someone else :D

Show an ability to learn and it won't be so scary for a corp to take you on at low SP. Likely they are a bit afraid of having to dedicate much training time to someone who should at least partially be teaching themselves, and worse might be 12 years old and completely incapable of independant thought.

I have experienced both kinds, and it is often the dealbreaker when i decide if someone should be admitted with low SP. If you think you might be kind 2, get in touch :D
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#9 - 2012-11-08 11:33:41 UTC
SP limits are often used to screen out fake account (or spais as they're most often called).

In larger corps you'll get fakes/spais/awoxers anyway, in smaller corps is just a matter of finding people that you like, or at least can stand, and that like, or at least can stand, you and the peeps you've already accepted.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Zanzbar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-11-08 13:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zanzbar
They are currently reworking almost every ship in game as well as modifying the way you skill up for many ships. This is going to make it a lot easier on new players as they won't have to train skills they don't care about to fly the ship they want, as well as making it far more simple to change training direction.

The problem with training boosts and such is it pisses off the players who trained it all at normal speed, and if its a 60 day 3x boost what do you tell the guy that's 61 days old and will soon have less sp then the 30 day character
Keno Skir
#11 - 2012-11-08 14:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Zanzbar wrote:
They are currently reworking almost every ship in game as well as modifying the way you skill up for many ships. This is going to make it a lot easier on new players as they won't have to train skills they don't care about to fly the ship they want, as well as making it far more simple to change training direction.

The problem with training boosts and such is it pisses off the players who trained it all at normal speed, and if its a 60 day 3x boost what do you tell the guy that's 61 days old and will soon have less sp then the 30 day character


I'm so p*ssed i just trained 2 months for command ships and now they gonna make all the command ships the same and really easy to skill for. I also kinda think the way they're gonna streamline ship training so u dont need cruiser 5 for command ships or other t2 hulls is pandering exactly to the people who just want to fly everything right now.

Don't like where this is goin :/
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#12 - 2012-11-08 14:38:49 UTC
Good stuff in this thread, but I'd like to point out that there are corps without SP requirements that are basically made for people like you (*ahem*). Of course, as pointed out, the SP requirements of other corps is flexible, and if it's not, you probably don't want to be in that corp anyway.

So far as "catching up" to vets: the beauty of Eve is that you don't have to. In whatever form of interaction you have, personal skill almost always trumps skill points (within reason). While you won't be slugging out vets and winning anytime soon (because of their superior skills), you can beat them via identifying their ship's weak points and exploiting them (kiting, tracking, etc), bringing friends, and other approaches.

I would like to put special emphasis on "bringing friends". Eve is a social game, and makes for a very poor single player game. Always try to be in a community of people you can talk to and cooperate with -- even if it's not your corp. That way, you can ask questions and have them answered right away, rather than waiting for the forum Q&A folks to wake up. When you fly with friends, complementing each other and force-multiplying can lead to great fun (as an example, a semi-true account of a fleet I was in after just playing for a few months).

Skill points don't usually make you "better". What they do do is expand your options over time, in fittings, ships, weapons, and various abilities. Thus, as you play for longer, you will be able to use a larger variety of ships in more roles and with more interesting setups.

Welcome to Eve!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#13 - 2012-11-08 14:44:09 UTC
I rather enjoy the extra flexibility that the new system will bring. It lessens the amount of time you have to spend getting into specific ships and increases the amount of time you can spend getting your ship working the way you want. It's a lot more modular than the old system, as you can get into the base ship fast and start "plugging in," so to speak, the support skills you want to train for that hull.

Personally, I like to get into ships in jumps. I'll spend months in a certain type of ship, and then buy three or four new types once I'm better skilled in that ship. So this works out more nicely for me.

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#14 - 2012-11-08 14:47:31 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Zanzbar wrote:
They are currently reworking almost every ship in game as well as modifying the way you skill up for many ships. This is going to make it a lot easier on new players as they won't have to train skills they don't care about to fly the ship they want, as well as making it far more simple to change training direction.

The problem with training boosts and such is it pisses off the players who trained it all at normal speed, and if its a 60 day 3x boost what do you tell the guy that's 61 days old and will soon have less sp then the 30 day character


I'm so p*ssed i just trained 2 months for command ships and now they gonna make all the command ships the same and really easy to skill for. I also kinda think the way they're gonna streamline ship training so u dont need cruiser 5 for command ships or other t2 hulls is pandering exactly to the people who just want to fly everything right now.

Don't like where this is goin :/

CS's desperately need work, what with the combat ones being absolutely cost ineffective compared to Tier-2 BCs, and the boosting ones being incredibly boring to fly. The proposed change attempts to bring them all into relevance. Since there aren't more details about it yet, I would refrain from judgment on them. I should point out, though, that there is great variety in the operation of CS's in the change; the only iffy part is the Damnation, Nighthawk, and Claymore all being vague 'missile' boats, but even they have very different hulls.

This topic is also quite irrelevant to this thread.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Herbinator d'Arcadie
Arkadian Knight
#15 - 2012-11-08 15:39:44 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
... there should be some mechanism to get newer players up to snuff faster. There is simply too great a divide between all the older, so-called "bittervet" players, and the new ones. I know personally that starting the game now, I feel like I'm at such a huge disadvantage simply due to my incredible lack of sp, comparatively speaking ...

You might try considering altering your point of view, a little. Rather than thinking it unfair that newbies cannot compete with long established players (which they can't), think of bittervets as being among the obstacles of the game. In other words, game them.

If you think of bittervets as simply yet another form of troll then EVE becomes far more fascinating and difficult. Watch them, lay your plans, train, pounce when ready, then withdraw into the darkness.

They want you as mercenary grist for their little fifedoms. Instead, you could be that thorny bandit harassing their greedy corps causing their members to defect, making their admin boringly tedious, etc.. Already, they do nothing but complain that more newbies don't wander around playing the "duck" in a duck shoot.

Not being a pawn of the entitled class is just one character position that one can take within EVE. It bugs them. Or you can pursue their rather mindless pew-pew oriented career path. Lots of choice out there. I'm having a ball. I'm sure that with your experience you will quickly discover and appreciate the many roles that can be cast.

"Block" pigs. Refuse to fly with them.

LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-08 16:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: LHA Tarawa
1) There are LOTS of new player friendly corporations.

2) The skill limit is not when you are finally "useful" because of the skills you have. New players are very useful, even if just as a scout, long before the first year is up.

Skill limits are used to
1) keep out spies that just created an alt on a trial account to infiltrate another corp.
2) keep from having to teach new players the game.

The year that it takes to get to the limit greatly reduces the odds this is a spy-alt, and that year of playing reduces the odds that you are going to be asking tons of really basic questions that get annoying to more experienced players.

Up the number of skill points that new player can learn in the first year, and those corps would just increase their minimum limits to weed out the spies and the new players with lots of basic questions.



SO.....

In that first year, find a new-player-friendly corp, and spend the year learning basic skills, trying lots of things, and asking lots of simple questions... making sure you understand the answer. That way, when you are ready to move to that corp that has a min skill requirement, they won't have to boot you for asking too many basic questions.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#17 - 2012-11-08 22:15:25 UTC
Look, I have been playing for years and am still crap. So, any new player with fresh goo in their pods is going to be better than me after about two weeks.

Don't worry about being new; there's so much to this game that when one decides on a new career path then it's going to be learning from scratch anyway, no matter how long one has played.

Yours out in Genesis trying to salvage the stargate and failing
- Myfanwy

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#18 - 2012-11-09 04:39:57 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
If they increase training time for the first 180days, all you will do is help older players train more alts more quickly.

Why is this a bad thing?

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

J'Poll
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#19 - 2012-11-09 09:48:44 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
If they increase training time for the first 180days, all you will do is help older players train more alts more quickly.

Why is this a bad thing?


More throw away alts for older players that just make them for a quick training boost and then don't use them anymore.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#20 - 2012-11-09 14:10:42 UTC
Separate corps and friends. Corps want (whatever) but friends could use lots of things. Hang around places where things are happening that you want to do and talk to people. Learn game mechanics and meet people in the first month or so then start looking for groups to join up with.

I know this can be difficult in high sec because of the nature of most kitchen sink and part time pvp corps there so you may want to head out into more dangerous places where people are actually needed for more than taxes or drunken fail fleet roams.
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