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[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2012-11-02 18:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
:Updated on November 22nd:

Hello everyone. Another set of changes to get feedback on for Retri.
Since we're adjusting so many ewar ships between the disruption frigates and disruption cruisers, we saw the need to make some moderate adjustments to the modules as well as to other ewar ships to keep them competitive.

The reason these are being revealed near the end of our feature announcements is that we were investigating options for a more comprehensive ECM rebalance, however that will not be able to make it into Retribution. These changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot, they are incremental changes that will build towards the more complete changes we would like to make to the mechanics.

Here's what we currently have on our plate for Retribution:

    ECM
    *Reduce Optimal Range and Falloff of all ECM modules by 10%
    *Add to the Optimal Range and Falloff bonus on ECM range bonused ships by 2.5% for the Blackbird, Kitsune and Tengu Obfuscation Manifold (bringing it to 12.5%) and 5% for the Scorpion (bringing it to 25%)
    *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 4% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 2 skills in the Electronics category)

    Damps
    *Increase Optimal Range of all Remote Sensor Dampeners by 20%
    *Set the Damp strength bonus on Damp bonused ships to 7.5% per level

    Tracking Disruptors
    *Reduce TD base module effectiveness by 5%
    *Set the TD strength bonus on all TD bonused ships to 7.5% per level

    Target Painter
    *Set the TP strength bonus on TP bonused ships to 7.5% per level for T1 and 10% per level for T2


We are aware of the effect the new skills will have on probing, and we're going to be keeping our eyes on it and have a few tricks up our sleeve in that regard.

We also want to reiterate that we are not looking at these ecm changes as a complete solution to the problems with that mechanic. It's a moderate change that we can make with the resources available for this expansion and that won't get in the way of our more comprehensive changes down the road.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-11-02 18:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
FIRST

Confirming good!

I like how a scorp will still be badass despite the range nerfs on unbonused ECM. I really appreciate that because scorps are such awesome ships to look at and should always be great at ECMing.

Also like the new rank 3 skills for sensor strength, they will be oh-so great for solo work.

(The scorp should always stay at the level its currently at, if not get better, because it's quite a commitment to be flying a scorp, and it can't just appear out of nowhere and screw up solo fights as easily as other boats. It's a great ship and really oriented to fleet stuff so I hope it won't become bad with the ECM changes.)

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#3 - 2012-11-02 18:28:26 UTC
YES!

Nerfing TD's!

Also, I like the thought of being able to skill up to be more resilient against ECM. That's going to be nice.
The range nerfs also aren't bad, that'll be nice to force them to be a little closer.

I like that Damps are getting fixed... but they can be really farking annoying. Unlike ECM, they almost never miss.

The TP's are nice. Still not as useful as other Ewars in most situations, but when they do get used, they'll actually get used to better effect now. No complaints there.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-11-02 18:30:31 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot.

An interesting choice of words :xd:

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Jon Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-11-02 18:34:52 UTC
I'll be honest and say I'm not too familiar with how greatly these percentages will change the in-game effectiveness of these modules, but the changes certainly seem to be on the right track.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2012-11-02 18:42:53 UTC
Dropping the range of ECM and increasing the range of damps is an interesting thematic tweak and I think it has merit - Gallente ships get a counter to the sniping focus of their traditional Caldari foes, whilst ECM becomes more about countering the short ranged gankwagons that represent the archetypical Gallente vessel, rather than countering everything.

If anything you might want to take this further - drop ECM optimal significantly and leave the falloff untouched, so that ECM is more focused against point-blank gankwagons and of diminishing value against even mid-ranged targets. Of course, you might also need to look at further incentivising those point-blank gankwagons in the first place...

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#7 - 2012-11-02 18:43:53 UTC
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2012-11-02 18:48:40 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?


47.5%. Multiply the effectiveness by 0.95, rather than subtract 5. I'll see if I can clarify the wording.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#9 - 2012-11-02 18:51:03 UTC
@CCP Fozzie why can't the scorp/all bs be a proper battleship and actually focus on killing stuff instead?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#10 - 2012-11-02 18:52:36 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
@CCP Fozzie why can't the scorp/all bs be a proper battleship and actually focus on killing stuff instead?


We have a bunch of long term plans for battleships, but in general we are ok with the unsual role the Scorp plays.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Lili Lu
#11 - 2012-11-02 18:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Thanks for these changes Fozzie. ANd as you say the whole thing is a work in progress. Also, I'd like to think I was the originator of the sensor integrity skills idea, but I honestly can't remember if I promoted the idea after reading someone else's suggestion for it way back when. Regardless, this addition evens the situation accross ewars. The only thing that would be missing at this point would be a skill for decreasing one's own signature radius, which could also only be effective if one is painted. But painting is still the weakest ewar so not a significant issue.

Goldensaver wrote:
YES!

Nerfing TD's!

Also, I like the thought of being able to skill up to be more resilient against ECM. That's going to be nice.
The range nerfs also aren't bad, that'll be nice to force them to be a little closer.

I like that Damps are getting fixed... but they can be really farking annoying. Unlike ECM, they almost never miss.

The TP's are nice. Still not as useful as other Ewars in most situations, but when they do get used, they'll actually get used to better effect now. No complaints there.


Agreed with TDs. Not sure if the 5% reduction is enough to stem the recent heavy use of unbonused TDs on ships with plentiful midslots. But at least it is something.

As for damps, and I have an alt that specs in it, I'm somewhat surprised by the optimal bonus. I almost figured a falloff range bonus would be more apprpriate, but I'll take the optimal bonus. The extensive falloff on damps operates as their chance component. But the current max skill ranges for a damp II are 45km opt and 90km falloff. How exactly is that 20% optimal buff going to affect that? will it be 54km optimal now?

edit - and ditto for wondering how the 5% TD reduction will exactly operate. Will it be the actual reduction in the percent of optimal or taracking disruption? or is it the percent change to be applied as a multiplier of the current strength?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#12 - 2012-11-02 18:57:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
@CCP Fozzie why can't the scorp/all bs be a proper battleship and actually focus on killing stuff instead?


We have a bunch of long term plans for battleships, but in general we are ok with the unsual role the Scorp plays.


You don't think its range and tank are too much for a e-war ship?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Gripen
#13 - 2012-11-02 18:58:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie, It would be great if you could comment on why are you doing changes and what you're trying to archieve with them because without such explanations changes may look like nonsense to some people. You know, like some other game companies do when announcing balance changes.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#14 - 2012-11-02 18:59:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)


Oh Hell yes.
Bizmarhk
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-11-02 19:01:07 UTC
This is great to read, and nice first step in the right direction of fixing the unbalanced thing that is ECM. Even though you wanted to do more, I think it's good to take incremental steps in addressing this issue, and many other issues within EVE. I'm excited to see how the field changes, more namely small gang PVP with the proposed changes.

Great work CCP Fozzie
Arydanika
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-11-02 19:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arydanika
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone. Another set of changes to get feedback on for Retri.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
These changes are not the final solution for ewar by a long shot, they are incremental changes that will build towards the more complete changes we would like to make to the mechanics.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's a moderate change that we can make with the resources available for this expansion and that won't get in the way of our more comprehensive changes down the road.


It's great to see developers moving towards small, incremental iterations rather than dipping an entire mechanic in acid and watching it crumbled to dust. This is a great few steps towards the balance of ECM and I'm looking forward to the moderate approach being continued.
When can players expect these changes to be loaded to Buckingham for testing?

Gripen wrote:
CCP Fozzie, It would be great if you could comment on why are you doing changes and what you're trying to archieve with them because without such explanations changes may look like nonsense to some people. You know, like some other game companies do when announcing balance changes.

I agree. Knowing the game plan and goals for a balance change can increase the relevancy of feedback.

Runner of Voices from the Void podcast, Eve Online Pod Pack & DJ on eve-radio.com Sundays at 1800.  Organizer of the ATX Eve Online Meet. ♥

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#17 - 2012-11-02 19:03:35 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

*Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category)


Oh Hell yes.


It would be cooler if a ship's sensor strength played into more then just ECM.
fukier
#18 - 2012-11-02 19:07:50 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
So scripted TD will be at 40% rather then 50% on unbonused ships?


47.5%. Multiply the effectiveness by 0.95, rather than subtract 5. I'll see if I can clarify the wording.


Still seems too high... I would prefer scripts to be only useable on bonused ships..

Make it a role bonus to use scripts.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
#19 - 2012-11-02 19:09:06 UTC
Changes look ok at first glance. I like the added skills. More stuff to train for towards perfection is welcomed.

I highly doubt that the nerf to TDs will change much though. Alas, i remain confident that this first small increment is the first step to better balanced E-War.
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#20 - 2012-11-02 19:10:20 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Thanks for these changes Fozzie. ANd as you say the whole thing is a work in progress. Also, I'd like to think I was the originator of the sensor integrity skills idea, but I honestly can't remember if I promoted the idea after reading someone else's suggestion for it way back when. Regardless, this addition evens the situation accross ewars. The only thing that would be missing at this point would be a skill for decreasing one's own signature radius, which could also only be effective if one is painted. But painting is still the weakest ewar so not a significant issue.

Goldensaver wrote:
YES!

Nerfing TD's!

Also, I like the thought of being able to skill up to be more resilient against ECM. That's going to be nice.
The range nerfs also aren't bad, that'll be nice to force them to be a little closer.

I like that Damps are getting fixed... but they can be really farking annoying. Unlike ECM, they almost never miss.

The TP's are nice. Still not as useful as other Ewars in most situations, but when they do get used, they'll actually get used to better effect now. No complaints there.


Agreed with TDs. Not sure if the 5% reduction is enough to stem the recent heavy use of unbonused TDs on ships with plentiful midslots. But at least it is something.

As for damps, and I have an alt that specs in it, I'm somewhat surprised by the optimal bonus. I almost figured a falloff range bonus would be more apprpriate, but I'll take the optimal bonus. The extensive falloff on damps operates as their chance component. But the current max skill ranges for a damp II are 45km opt and 90km falloff. How exactly is that 20% optimal buff going to affect that? will it be 54km optimal now?

edit - and ditto for wondering how the 5% TD reduction will exactly operate. Will it be the actual reduction in the percent of optimal or taracking disruption? or is it the percent change to be applied as a multiplier of the current strength?


Yeah, it's nice to see painting get a buff. It'll be effective in the situations where it actually gets fielded over the other EWar's now.

But I'm not sure if the TD nerf was enough either. I'd like to see it go the way of the dodo on unbonused ships, perhaps more base effectiveness nerfs, and more bonus buffs. You know, a la ECM?

It is strange that they decided to buff damp optimal, yeah. They've got great falloff, and I'd rather have seen them work with that. Of course, guaranteed damps are better, I guess.
I do know that Damps are going to frustrate me a lot though. They're less chance based then ECM (assuming you have sufficient sensor strength to not get jammed 100% of the time), and it'll be frustrating to see my range cut down below my preferred engagement range. Of course, that is why they exist, so I shouldn't be complaining. But with the stacking penalties of locking range boosters, you can't even effectively counter damps after the first couple range scripted sebo's. Of course, it isn't a huge buff, so I'm probably over-reacting...

The ECM counter skills are a great idea if you ask me. I love the fact that you can skill up to counter ECM now. Not much more to say on that, now we'll see less permajams. Of course, ships with inherently low sensor strength are still going to suffer from almost-perma jams, regardless.
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