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freighter fits

Author
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#1 - 2012-10-26 12:08:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
Hello,

I hate align time of my orca, and i hear its even worse on freighters and on top of that their warp speed is extremely slow. Its like double nerf. On top of that freighters are extremely expensvive and require somewhat expensive skills. Thats actually triple nerf.

There is no reason they should be nerfed in this manner, because moving stuff around is not a bad thing. Realistically freighters should have a slower align time and possibly slow warp speed, i agree with that, but the state they are in currently is beyond reason. To be honest CCP should consider putting a cap on align time of all ships, because current align times have become overinflated.

Basically Align time = downtime. Its time where you just sit and stare at the screen, its boring and discouraing. You cant measure how many people leave the game because of the align times, and its likely not a sole reason for people leaving, but it is no doubt a contributing factor as align time is actually a nuisance.

Imo CCP needs to consider wether they are designing a nuisance or an obstacle. There is a difference between the two imo. Having a game with too many nuisances will eventually make people quit. Having a game with obstacles will make people play. Basically what i mean is, a nuisance is something you cant do anything about where as an obstacle is a challange and something you can do something about. Thats the essence of any game, a challenge at the core consisting of obstacles players can overcome.

So the align times especially on freighters are a nuisance. It should be turned into an obstacle. And it could be done by giving pilots the ability to fit their freighters. First of all lets make it clear that the freighters have huge cargo-bays, meaning a 5% increase to cargo capacity is alot. For this matter a 5% decrease is also alot. Thats why i believe any attribute that affects cargo bay, regardless of its a bonus or "debonus" should not affect a freighter. This means there is no penalty in using an overdrive, however there is no bonus in using a cargo expander either. Its not unbelievable either, from the games perspective as because of the large and "special" cargo bay of the freighter, modules cannot affect it.

So to keep things simple freighters shouldnt get too many slots. And to be honest the only slots that really matter as far as i can tell are the low-lots because thats where you improve align times and what not. However i actually suggest frieghters get high slots and med slots as well just to give people something to experiment with. I mean, even the old school industrial ships have high slots. So,1 slot each. 1 high, 1 med, 1 low on each freighter. I realise 1 istab is not going to make a difference on a freighter, it certainly doesent on my orca. This is why i believe their default align times should be lowered. Even if 1 slot/istab still does not significantly improve align time, the new default reduction to lets say 15-20 secs will have freighter owners rejoice, and as if that isnt enough the ability for them to expirement with fits although pretty limited, will just add to their satisfaction.
Well, thats why i think long align times are bad, and freighters at least could use an overhaul.

o/

Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2012-10-26 12:51:35 UTC
ur not fitting freighters ever, because they are supposed to align at a set, huge amount of time, because otherwise they could just troll through low and null without issues. As well, they could end up doing the cloaky warp trick and becoming invincible, however impossible that seems...

and its not just your convenience that is being screwed up by your obelisk taking 30 seconds to get into warp, its the speed of movement of items. Too many things moving too quickly would make the market move much too quickly respectively.

Your align times won't change, because they make sense for such massive ships, they prevent people from just flying around dangerous space willy nilly without support, and they limit market movement.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us

Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#3 - 2012-10-26 12:55:31 UTC
Really? 20 seconds is too little for a gate camp. I think you are understimating them. Gatecampers can catch cloaking frigs and what not atm. Its called instalocking. Once the align times goes beyond 10-15 seconds it doesnt add anything but a noisance for players

o/

Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-10-26 14:41:53 UTC
OP doesnt understand what 'nerf' means

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#5 - 2012-10-26 14:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
Hi :)

What does it mean?

o/

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
#6 - 2012-10-26 15:53:22 UTC
Souisa wrote:
... Its like double nerf. ... Thats actually triple nerf.

There is no reason they should be nerfed in this manner, ...


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#7 - 2012-10-26 16:44:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
You cant figure out what i mean?

o/

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-10-26 17:11:43 UTC
freighters are a specialist ship, like most ships in EVE

freighters are so specialized that they can only do one thing: haul lots and lots of cargo

complaining that a freighter is too slow is like complaining about a tier 3 BC having too few EHP, or being unable to fit a 100mn AB to your frigate
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#9 - 2012-10-26 17:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
You got it wrong im afraid. Its important ships has fittings else eve would not be eve. Imagine if they made a "PVP ship" with prefitted guns and that was your only option

o/

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
#10 - 2012-10-26 18:49:16 UTC
Souisa wrote:
You cant figure out what i mean?


Nerfing something refers to making it worse or less than it was. Freighters have never received a nerf, they were designed with poor align time and poor speed. But they haven't been lowered from where they started. Hence, no nerfs here.


Aside from semantics: Freighters are "Working as Designed".

The design is for a ship that moves enormous amounts with very specific weaknesses. Given the huge load these things can carry, it makes sense for the align time to be what it is. It's related to mass ... well, it's related to the moment of inertia, but if we assume density is consistent then we can use mass for moment.


A Charon's mass is 10x the mass of a Raven. A Raven has an align time of 12 seconds. If we want to be realistic, the Charon should have an align time around 120 seconds.


(for anyone that cares: Align time is directly related to the angular acceleration of a ship. It's the same formula you're used to (F=ma) we we replace mass with the moment of inertia (F=Ia). (technically a different 'a' too, but I don't care that much for the details). Anyway, a Charon would assumedly have a larger engine than a Raven. For a 40 sec align time to make sense, the engine on the Charon would need to be 3x more powerful than a Raven's. This seems realistic)



Strangely enough, I agree that freighters should have some limited fittings slots (2 low, 2 mediums, 3 large rigs). It gives you the ability to speed it up or tank it up.
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#11 - 2012-10-26 19:04:19 UTC
Align times that take longer than 20 secs is poor design tho

o/

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#12 - 2012-10-26 19:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Souisa wrote:
Align times that take longer than 20 secs is poor design tho

Bear in mind that you can move entire fleets inside a freighter (repackaged of course) and/or seed entire local markets in far flung locations. ~900k cubic meters is nothing to sniff at.
In fact... the freighter is actually faster than some industrials per cubic meter, per jump when large cargos need to be moved... all due to its massive cargohold.

Now... there is a trick to make freighters effectively "instawarp"... but if you want it you have to send me 20 million ISK. Blink
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#13 - 2012-10-26 19:51:25 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Souisa wrote:
Align times that take longer than 20 secs is poor design tho

Bear in mind that you can move entire fleets inside a freighter (repackaged of course) and/or seed entire local markets in far flung locations. ~900k cubic meters is nothing to sniff at.
In fact... the freighter is actually faster than some industrials per cubic meter, per jump when large cargos need to be moved... all due to its massive cargohold.

Now... there is a trick to make freighters effectively "instawarp"... but if you want it you have to send me 20 million ISK. Blink


Or send me 40 million.

No, wait...15? Right? Am I scamming correctly?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Jadzia Narys
Evermore Warriors
#14 - 2012-10-26 20:11:15 UTC
Freighters are the largest ship that can be allowed in high sec. They were designed to hold cargo not warp fast. Im sorry if you dont like this you dont you give blockades runners a try?
Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#15 - 2012-10-26 20:24:21 UTC
It seems that people do not understand the core problem which is freighters are dull. You could easily improve the align time and warp time, without it wrecking the economy. The problem is freighters are boring and way too time consuming and they dont have to. I understand that they shouldnt be insta warpers, but they wont be with align time >20 secs. They would simply become less excrutiating to pilot, whereas they can still be tackled, ganked and what not

o/

Souisa
WESCORP 2.0
#16 - 2012-10-26 20:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Souisa
ShahFluffers wrote:
Souisa wrote:
Align times that take longer than 20 secs is poor design tho

Bear in mind that you can move entire fleets inside a freighter (repackaged of course) and/or seed entire local markets in far flung locations. ~900k cubic meters is nothing to sniff at.
In fact... the freighter is actually faster than some industrials per cubic meter, per jump when large cargos need to be moved... all due to its massive cargohold.

Now... there is a trick to make freighters effectively "instawarp"... but if you want it you have to send me 20 million ISK. Blink


Its also very expensive so it better be better. It takes how many normal industrials to buy 1 freighter? It takes at least 70 just to afford the skills. Anyway my point is the freighter is dull and that an align time of 20 seconds rather than 40 has a positive impact for the pilot, and no negative impact on the economy, piracy, ganks and so on. Its a win win situation

o/

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2012-10-26 20:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Souisa wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Souisa wrote:
Align times that take longer than 20 secs is poor design tho

Bear in mind that you can move entire fleets inside a freighter (repackaged of course) and/or seed entire local markets in far flung locations. ~900k cubic meters is nothing to sniff at.
In fact... the freighter is actually faster than some industrials per cubic meter, per jump when large cargos need to be moved... all due to its massive cargohold.


Its also very expensive so it better be better. It takes how many normal industrials to buy 1 freighter? Hell, it takes about 70 normal industrials just to afford the skills for a freighter.

You seem to be unfamiliar with the concept of "diminishing returns" in EVE. If you want to be more and more effective you must pay exponentially more. And even then, it's no guarantee.

For example: my carrier costs about 2 billion ISK. It has around 1.2 million EHP, can repair about 2k DPS (9K while in triage), and field about 900 DPS in fighters. However... I can be pinned down indefinitely by a 30 million ISK Malediction (T2 Frigate) using a warp disruptor and my fighters (valued at 15 million ISK a pop) won't even scratch it. Hell... Warrior II drones won't either if that interceptor is speed fit.

Souisa wrote:
Besides my point is the freighter is dull and that an align time of 20 seconds rather than 40 makes a huge difference for the pilot, not for the economy nor gankers etc.

Actually, 20 seconds makes a HUMONGOUS difference for traders. The distance between Jita and Amarr is... what? 30 or so jumps? Assuming that a Freighter pilot doesn't use the "instawarp" trick...

40 seconds x 30 jumps = 1200 seconds ( 20 minutes) just aligning.

20 seconds x 30 jumps = 600 seconds (10 minutes) just aligning.

And yes... you're right... not many players want to sit through 20 minutes of watching their ship just point in the right direction.
HOWEVER... this is INTENTIONAL.
It is this time sink that restricts trade between different regions and causes price differences... which allows those traders who ARE willing to put the effort into sitting through 20 minutes of aligning to profit.
This same reasoning can also be applied when the freighter is being used as a corporate/alliance asset to move war materials across the map.

Now... you may point towards Jump Freighters and their ability to use a jump drive to bypass all the aligning and warping. What about their ability to move ships and goods?
Well... there is a reason they cost upwards of ten times as much as a normal freighter and have around a third of their T1 brethren's cargo capacity.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-10-26 21:08:18 UTC
Can any of you freighter pilots tell us how much faster you align when webbed by a friendly?

Isn't that enough of an align buff?
Phased Veldspar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-10-27 01:48:45 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Can any of you freighter pilots tell us how much faster you align when webbed by a friendly?

Isn't that enough of an align buff?


Isn't that considered an exploit leading to bannishment?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#20 - 2012-10-27 04:55:09 UTC
Phased Veldspar wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Can any of you freighter pilots tell us how much faster you align when webbed by a friendly?

Isn't that enough of an align buff?


Isn't that considered an exploit leading to bannishment?

It's a... "grey area" in the rules... shhhhhhhhhhh.
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