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State of Slavery in the Amarr Empire

Author
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1 - 2011-10-01 08:49:35 UTC
The Intergalactic Summit is a place for heated debates from various viewpoints. It can be fun, or it can be tiring. A few recent discussions there have revealed some glaring inconsistencies in the prime fiction regarding the current state of slavery in the Amarrian Empire. Basically, depending on which parts of the PF you read, you end up with either the idea that there's only a minor part of slaves left, most of which have to be criminals, or that the emancipation act of Jamyl has been a rather small gesture.

Emancipation Act

Jamyl "emancipated" all slaves of the 9th generation and older (and even all higher-educated ones, regardless of generation - a somewhat lesser-known detail). It is completely unclear what proportion of all slaves this would be.

A "generation" in the modern world is between 20 and 30 years, with less developed countries hitting shorter time spans there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#Familial_generation Assuming 30 years, which is the upper end in the present-day world, 8th generation slaves would have been captured around 180 years ago, or about 67 years before YC. That's some 15 years before the Amarr first make contact with the Gallente and Caldari, and 47 years (1-2 generations) before the rebellion.

The first Minmatar slaves were taken 881 years before YC, which would amount to over 33 generations, with major parts of the Minmatar Empire being conquered 29 generations ago. Older generations have an exponential growth, meaning the first 24-20 generations should vastly outnumber the last 8 generations. But the 9th generation apparently only made up some 600 - 700 million slaves. http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2643&tid=4 PF states that, prior to this emancipation, more than one third of the present-day population remains enslaved as well The Minmatars are the most numerous of all the races in the world of EVEhttp://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar

Assuming a 50/50 split between the 9th to 33rd generation and the 1st to 8th generation, which is highly unlikely, we'd end up with a 1.4 billion Minmatar in the Empire, and thus 4.2 billion Minmatar in total. They're also the most numerous of the four races, so we're talking about justunder 17 billion people in the whole EVE universe (excluding Jovians). Present-day earth has 7 billion people on it, so EVE is kinda small!

This does not make sense at all. Not to mention that the rest of PF hasn't noted that the Amarr suddenly do not really depend on slave labor anymore, so this can't have been a very significant drop in slave population.

So there is something to "the 9th generation" that is not quite apparent to the eye. There's PF to indicate that tampering with the records happens, but is severely punished, http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2649&tid=2 so that's not the explanation for the large discrepancy. Matariki Rain suggested that the "9th Generation and upwards" refers to pure-breed slaves - any kind of tarnishing there (e.g. offspring from a Holder or other non-Minmatar, maybe even offspring from a non-dedicated partner) would break such lineage. But this is not supported by any PF on the matter.

So, we now have the Quantum Empire in a superposition between having few slaves left at all, most of which are criminals, and having just as many slaves as before with a gesture of good-will at best.

No Enslavement Outside of the Empire

There is a repeated claim that the Empire is currently not allowing capturing slaves outside of the Empire. The only source for this that I could find was in the evelopedia, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery where it was entered by Garion Avarr, not a CCP employee. Does anyone have any other source for this?

Because it sure as hell does not seem like it. If you fly Minmatar missions, you regularly get to fight Imperial Navy ships enslaving people in the Republic in various ways. The 24th IC recruitment text even states rather explicitly that [w]e need you to reclaim the Minmatar. Etc. etc.

So my explanation so far was that the law is more or less a farce, as the Empire is rather obviously breaking it. But that's kinda silly for Amarr loyalists having to try defend their Empire acting obviously against its own laws.


(Rough) answers to these questions should be easily available to most people in new eden, especially capsuleers. The EVE-equivalent of Wikipedia should list details such as "the emancipation act released roughly 99%/75%/50%/10%/1%/0.000001% of all slaves" and also why it was only that percentage. There also should be an easy reference to this law and why the Empire feels it not in conflict with its own law to launch a crusade to "reclaim" the Minmatar.

(Side note: It's highly annoying that the url tag on these forums is so dysfunctional. Sorry for the URLs in the post.)
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-10-01 09:06:59 UTC
I can only supply what little information I got on the topic of slavery LINK

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#3 - 2011-10-01 09:26:58 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
I can only supply what little information I got on the topic of slavery LINK
Thank you. Does not quite answer the confusion, but gives some hints:

1) The main reason why the Amarr are not capturing new slaves outside of the Empire is given as "fear of trade embargoes", not the law. I'm more and more wondering if that law never existed, but it's a bit too widely-known to be just made up.

2) The Amarr do use "independent" sources of slaves to increase the current stock of slaves, i.e. it's not primarily a criminal punishment.

Hm.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#4 - 2011-10-01 13:01:26 UTC
there's a couple references to things in old stuff like:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1344&tid=2
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=419686
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=436217&page=1#12

mentioning things like the Youil Conventions.

there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"

there might be something, in the eve-guardian interview with Emperor Doriam, but I can't seem to find a copy of that.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#5 - 2011-10-01 13:38:27 UTC
Thanks. (I guess this is about the imperial law I mentioned, not so much the rest of the post.)

Those sources mention all laws and regulations enforced by CONCORD and abides by the Yoiul Conventions to the letter, and does not traffic in slaves illegal acquired (incidentally, also All IHR slaves are home bred and trained, from birth to adulthood, no mention of criminals).

Regarding CONCORD, I've found http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=64 CONCORD wants to remind people that slave trade is strictly forbidden everywhere except within Amarr borders.

Nothing about an imperial law.

Quote:
there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"


Rogue Slave Traders (1 of 2 wrote:
We currently have a rogue slave trader on our hands, Arkady Sadik. The Blood Raiders have apparently dispatched a group of their own to Sveipar to look for potential victims. They've been raiding outlying settlements, which have weak security systems in place.

Our primary objective right now is to get back the people they've taken captive. We think we've located their slave pen in *system*, but it's your job to make sure. Destroy the structure and rescue the slaves if you can, then report back to me. We'll deal with these slave traders later.


Downing the Slavers (2 of 2) wrote:
Now that we've destroyed the slave pen and rescued the captives, it's time to turn our attention to the slavers themselves. You have the full authority of the government to shoot to kill, we do not expect any prisoners.

We believe we know of the current whereabouts of these slavers. Warp to the bookmark in your NeoCom, and try to find them somewhere in the asteroid belt.


Maybe some other mission?

Quote:
there might be something, in the eve-guardian interview with Emperor Doriam, but I can't seem to find a copy of that.


Wayback Machine to the rescue!

http://web.archive.org/web/20031231094933/http://www.eveguardian.com/comments.php?catid=14&id=334

The only relevant part I could find:

Due to the multi-faceted nature of the Amarr Empire there are no formal rules about slavery. I intend to set standard laws for slavery, regulating their treatment, work hours and so on. These laws will call for more humane treatment of slaves, but slavery is an integral part of the Empire and my aim is certainly not to abolish it.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#6 - 2011-10-01 14:34:14 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Quote:
there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"


Maybe some other mission?


ahh, the exact briefing appears to depend upon the agent that is giving you the mission. i.e. the one I mentioned, is the briefing for Amarr agents.

I know when the mission is given by Gallente agents, it's different.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#7 - 2011-10-01 14:57:37 UTC
Louella Dougans wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Quote:
there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"


Maybe some other mission?


ahh, the exact briefing appears to depend upon the agent that is giving you the mission. i.e. the one I mentioned, is the briefing for Amarr agents.

I know when the mission is given by Gallente agents, it's different.
How annoying. Anyone with access to Amarr L3s want to ruin their agent standings on SiSi and find the mission description? :o)
Publius Valerius
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#8 - 2011-10-01 23:03:27 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:

No Enslavement Outside of the Empire

There is a repeated claim that the Empire is currently not allowing capturing slaves outside of the Empire. The only source for this that I could find was in the evelopedia, http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery where it was entered by Garion Avarr, not a CCP employee. Does anyone have any other source for this?



In fact, the kingdom takes slavery even further than the empire. The Amarr Empire uses almost exclusively Minmatar and Ealur slaves, but the kingdom, denied many of their traditional slave sources, take slaves wherever they can find them.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Khanid_Kingdom_%28Chronicle%

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer

Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2011-10-02 00:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Esna Pitoojee
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Louella Dougans wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Quote:
there's also the "rogue slave trader" mission (lvl3 vs Blood raiders) which mentions that "These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire"


Maybe some other mission?


ahh, the exact briefing appears to depend upon the agent that is giving you the mission. i.e. the one I mentioned, is the briefing for Amarr agents.

I know when the mission is given by Gallente agents, it's different.
How annoying. Anyone with access to Amarr L3s want to ruin their agent standings on SiSi and find the mission description? :o)


I can try poking level 3s again when my comp / ISP / some-other-piece-of-technology isn't exploding on me, but for whatever it's worth I can confirm seeing the mission briefing Louella posted, and that it appears to be exclusive to Amarr, level 3 , vs. Blood Raiders (I've since run missions for other factions and level agents, and never seen it elsewhere).
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#10 - 2011-10-17 12:31:32 UTC
It sure took me a while to find someone who'd be willing to ruin their Amarr standings on SiSi, but, The Rogue Slave Traders, L3, from Joint Harvesting:

Quote:
And please do not confuse these low-lifes to the legit slave-users we sometimes do business with. These Blood Raider fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire.
No mention of an imperial law, but that's an interesting tidbit. Thanks for pointing me to it :-)

PF stating "the truth" is boring, as it makes disagreeing about something more difficult, and disagreement is the basis of any discussion. On the other hand, PF being clearly contradictory is bad, as it means you can't argue in such a discussion. PF should provide "easily checkable facts" as such, and then various opinions of the different factions on these facts.

I think by now that the "Imperial law that outlaws taking slaves outside of the Empire" is a player-created idea that is not really supported by PF. What is the case is that the Empire is trying to make their slavery look in some good light, e.g. by stating in public that their slaves are all criminals and POWs only, and doing slave raids into other nations only as covert operations or via proxy organizations, say, the Angel Cartel or the Caldari State.

This is supported by the PF tidbit in "Are You Receiving? (2 of 3)":

Quote:
Modern Slavery in Amarr
Whatever their other gifts, the Amarr are very good at two things: piety and self-justification. Both of these qualities, but most assuredly the second, come in handy when one considers the issue of slavery.

Since slavery is a consistently inherent theme in their religious doctrine (and how can something be wrong if faith allows it?), the Amarr must contend at all times with the disgust other races feel toward slavery. Chief among their opponents are the Gallente, whose displeasure is undoubtedly fueled by the many transplanted Minmatar flooding their homeworlds and stations. In the halcyon days of the Empire, the Amarr would easily have dismissed such concerns — but recent history has brought to some Amarr, at least, both humility and prudence.

Yet the need for slaves has not diminished — and in fact, since the recent Elder Fleet "recovery" effort in Amarr space, that need has grown terribly. However, the Amarr tradition of collecting slaves has necessarily become problematic for those Heirs and Holders, who may face trade embargoes and similar punitive actions from other nations. So many Amarr look surreptitiously to more "independent" sources of slaves — sources who don’t care for any optics outside of their own bank balances.
This mission series has the player hunt some Amarr propaganda radio (<3 story) which turns out to be a group working with the Angel Cartel, where the Angel Cartel is shipping a number of slaves to the Amarr homeworlds. The connection is obvious, but deniable by the Empire. Similarly, in the "In The Midst of Deadspace" series, a group of Amarr and Caldari have set up a slave compound within the Republic with an explicit statement that they were raiding civilians for new slaves. Again, the Amarr try to use some proxy organization to make their slave raids "deniable". It's a bit confusing that Caldari help with this, as slavery is illegal in the State, but I guess Caldari do a lot for profit.

So this ends up with the Amarr position being that they do not raid other nations for slaves, they just buy slaves from third parties and do not care where those slaves come from. This would not be a possible position if "taking slaves outside of the Empire" was simply illegal, as the Amarr then would be buying illegal goods. So, no imperial law to "forbid" anything, just being careful about slave raids and how this appears in public.


My original confusion remains: What (rough) percentage of the Minmatar is still in captivity?

PF can be read as anything between "a very small percentage" or "almost a third still". That's kinda a large variance, and at least a rough idea should be easy to check for a capsuleer.

If it is indeed "a very small percentage" that remains in slavery, then the news article about slave numbers needs updating, as the "few hundred million people" can not have been almost a third of the Minmatar. Also, it would be great to have some kind of public information as to why the Republic still fights the war if "almost all Minmatar have been freed."

And if it is "almost a third still" that is in captivity, then we'd need some kind of idea why the 9th generation and above are only such a small percentage of the total slave population - was the check for that 9th generation very strict so many didn't quality? Or what was it?

Anything in between the extremes probably needs similar explanations, too.
Alain Kinsella
#11 - 2011-10-17 17:17:03 UTC
Note there is an L4 version of the 'Rogue Slave Traders' mission pair, which is v. Sansha (just ran it this morning as an Ammatar mission). For *that* faction, the wording made sense on part 2 (replace your last post's quote appropriately).

Quote:

And please do not confuse these low-lifes to the legit slave-users we sometimes do business with. These Sansha's Nation fanatics kidnap people indiscriminately, instead of only targeting criminals and POWs like the Amarr Empire.


"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#12 - 2011-10-19 16:54:31 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I think by now that the "Imperial law that outlaws taking slaves outside of the Empire" is a player-created idea that is not really supported by PF. What is the case is that the Empire is trying to make their slavery look in some good light, e.g. by stating in public that their slaves are all criminals and POW's only, and doing slave raids into other nations only as covert operations or via proxy organizations, say, the Angel Cartel or the Caldari State.


I especially agree with this paragraph. We've all seen the phrase "no slaves shall be taken outside of the Empire, etc.", so we know it's there. But as you have so thoroughly established, it doesn't mesh with everything else in the game background (even mission descriptions, etc.) That single sentence has very large implications, yet there is very little foundation to support it. Still, it became very popular on the IGS and among Amarrian capsuleers in general. I think I know one of the main reasons for that.

I hope that what I say next doesn't come across as a rant, but rather my personal observations. In my experience there is a gaping hole between the dominant cultural values and traditions of the Amarr and those of that roleplay Amarrian loyalist capsuleers. (That said, I don't want to suggest that there is such a thing as "right" or "wrong" forms of RP. )

The majority of Amarrian RPers that I know of are against slavery IC. And I'm not surprised. Let's face it, slavery is... well... evil! Even being a pirate has a bit of a romantic flair over it, but slavery isn't an attractive venue for most players interested in roleplaying. I can't say I ever met an Amarrian RP'er that joined because he thought it would be cool to have slaves. It is often considered an awkward thing that comes with the package rather than a selling point. Instead, many of the players that go Amarrian are attracted to the monastic feel, architecture, ship designs, etc... RP'ing a slave owner also has the far reaching consequence of it severely limiting a positive interaction with the rest of the RP community beyond "Die infidel!" ... "No YOU die, slaving bastard!" which does get old faster than you'd think from the Amarrian perspective for all but a few.

This causes a situation wherein the "mainstream" Amarrian culture feels more like a fringe cult among it's own loyalist players while corporations who "want to do it different" pop up left and right all the time. This is why I'm not surprised that certain snippets of PF are popularized by the players even if they don't make a lot of sense. And I can't fault them for that. We all play to have fun, and if the PF hands you even a single line that you can use to justify your view, why not use it?

I hope that there will be an effort sooner or later to make the PF less contradictory.
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-10-19 22:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Montmazar
Also of note, depending on just how many slaves got freed, there would likely be massive societal changes, and on some worlds likely violence, revolution, or anti (former?) slave genocide. We're talking about a massive loss of capital to the slave owners, as their "property" ceases to be as such, a sudden influx in the cities of angry, desperate poor people of low social status and probably no means of supporting themselves, and the very basis of the Amarr empire tradition being challenged. I think if this was really done, there would be at least a few worlds and factions in open rebellion against the Amarr now, angry about the social changes and facing uncertain economic futures without their slaves. While it could be a small number of total slaves freed, and thus not causing these social changes, I don't see how 9th generation in context of previous PF of indefinite slavery for whole ethnicities over centuries would not equal just a huge amount of people, easily enough to lead to economic and population shifts sufficient to cause unrest and even revolution.
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#14 - 2011-10-20 12:02:31 UTC
Lucius Vindictus wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
I think by now that the "Imperial law that outlaws taking slaves outside of the Empire" is a player-created idea that is not really supported by PF. What is the case is that the Empire is trying to make their slavery look in some good light, e.g. by stating in public that their slaves are all criminals and POW's only, and doing slave raids into other nations only as covert operations or via proxy organizations, say, the Angel Cartel or the Caldari State.


I especially agree with this paragraph. We've all seen the phrase "no slaves shall be taken outside of the Empire, etc.", so we know it's there. But as you have so thoroughly established, it doesn't mesh with everything else in the game background (even mission descriptions, etc.) That single sentence has very large implications, yet there is very little foundation to support it. Still, it became very popular on the IGS and among Amarrian capsuleers in general. I think I know one of the main reasons for that.

I hope that what I say next doesn't come across as a rant, but rather my personal observations. In my experience there is a gaping hole between the dominant cultural values and traditions of the Amarr and those of that roleplay Amarrian loyalist capsuleers. (That said, I don't want to suggest that there is such a thing as "right" or "wrong" forms of RP. )

The majority of Amarrian RPers that I know of are against slavery IC. And I'm not surprised. Let's face it, slavery is... well... evil! Even being a pirate has a bit of a romantic flair over it, but slavery isn't an attractive venue for most players interested in roleplaying. I can't say I ever met an Amarrian RP'er that joined because he thought it would be cool to have slaves. It is often considered an awkward thing that comes with the package rather than a selling point. Instead, many of the players that go Amarrian are attracted to the monastic feel, architecture, ship designs, etc... RP'ing a slave owner also has the far reaching consequence of it severely limiting a positive interaction with the rest of the RP community beyond "Die infidel!" ... "No YOU die, slaving bastard!" which does get old faster than you'd think from the Amarrian perspective for all but a few.

This causes a situation wherein the "mainstream" Amarrian culture feels more like a fringe cult among it's own loyalist players while corporations who "want to do it different" pop up left and right all the time. This is why I'm not surprised that certain snippets of PF are popularized by the players even if they don't make a lot of sense. And I can't fault them for that. We all play to have fun, and if the PF hands you even a single line that you can use to justify your view, why not use it?

I hope that there will be an effort sooner or later to make the PF less contradictory.

I find it interesting when people talk about RP and look at elements such as slavery as a taboo subject. In context, is that the Amarrian talking or the person behind the character? It's interesting to note when you hear some of the actors who have played the most heinous characters you could imagine that they have thoroughly enjoyed it and yet are the gentlest most caring people in RL.

Isn't it one of the beauties and challenges of RP to play as someone whom in RL you would be diametrically opposed to?


Now with regards to slavery and asking for hard facts about numbers and exact Amarr policies from CCP, I say that we should never know. Why do I say that? because in any large culture there will always be shades of grey and certainly in the Amarr Empire there will be sub factions that simply will not comply with decrees even from the Empress. Basically a blind eye would be turned on these individuals rather than have them offside.

And like in any large culture the Empress can't afford to create enemies out of powerfull houses, otherwise her reign may be very short lived. You don't need to look any further than with Julius Caeser, to see where getting on the wrong side of powerfull people can get you. And throughout history there are many other examples of this and I don't see it being any different for the Amarr.

Also concidering the relevance of slaves with regards to the Amarr religion and basically that they have very few rights because they are not part of the 'enlightened' rings true to what we have seen throughout our own history.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#15 - 2011-10-20 12:24:25 UTC
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Now with regards to slavery and asking for hard facts about numbers and exact Amarr policies
I don't think anyone asked for that.

What I asked for was a rough idea of proportions, and the official law. Both should be trivial to find out for any capsuleer in the EVE universe. I fully agree that exact numbers are irrelevant, and that policies are an awesome thing to keep unclear because it allows for good RP.

There is a vast difference between "some PF implies that there are only very few Minmatar in captivity still, and actually the total amount of Minmatar is about the number of humans on RL earth" and "the absolutely exact numbers of minmatar freed are ...", though. Just because the latter is undesirable does not mean that the former is the only option.
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#16 - 2011-10-20 14:00:58 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Now with regards to slavery and asking for hard facts about numbers and exact Amarr policies
I don't think anyone asked for that.

What I asked for was a rough idea of proportions, and the official law. Both should be trivial to find out for any capsuleer in the EVE universe. I fully agree that exact numbers are irrelevant, and that policies are an awesome thing to keep unclear because it allows for good RP.

There is a vast difference between "some PF implies that there are only very few Minmatar in captivity still, and actually the total amount of Minmatar is about the number of humans on RL earth" and "the absolutely exact numbers of minmatar freed are ...", though. Just because the latter is undesirable does not mean that the former is the only option.

Your determining your numbers on virtually a guess by a Gallante analyst who would have no way of knowing the true numbers of slaves within the Amarr Empire.

Is that the official law or lore?

I will say this though, the number of people supposedly within New Eden does seem awefully low when concidering the sheer number of habitable planets involved (1829 life bearing planets in Empire space alone). Not to mention the number of space stations, many capable of holding a conciderable amount of people.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#17 - 2011-10-20 14:40:55 UTC
Azahni Vah'nos wrote:
Your determining your numbers on virtually a guess by a Gallante analyst who would have no way of knowing the true numbers of slaves within the Amarr Empire.
I am not determining my numbers.

I am saying that PF gives rather contradictory evidence on something that a capsuleer should be able to easily get a rough estimate on. You can say "I will for various reasons ignore that part of PF and only accept that other part of PF", but that does not facilitate RP discussions, it facilitates "your RP is wrong" discussions, and those are boring.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#18 - 2011-10-20 18:59:44 UTC
there's also bits in some minmatar missions.

lvl1s and 2s may tend to have more bits of pf.

"Slavers who use such methods tend to be secretive about it, often anchoring their breeding centres in low-sec or unclaimed space, however profitable, these facilities are generally looked down upon even in polite Amarrian society (especially since the Doriam reforms)."
is a bit from a lvl1 mission from minmatar agents (vitoc vector iirc)

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#19 - 2011-10-20 19:53:39 UTC
Full text of that:

Quote:
Breeding Facilities – Even Death Is Better

This type of breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr; rumors abound that the slaves in these places hail from other races as well, including even fallen Amarr who are sent here rather than to penal colonies.

Brood slaves are held within breeder colonies for the sole purpose of increasing a slaver’s stock. Discarded when they have outlived their usefulness, these poor souls have a terribly short life expectancy, although that fact might be a blessing when one considers the misery of their existence.

Slavers who use such methods tend to be secretive about it, often anchoring their breeding centers in low-sec or unclaimed space; however profitable, these facilities are generally looked down upon even in polite Amarrian society (especially since the Doriam reforms).


I'm not sure which of the whole topic the "that" there refers to.
Kiev Duran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-10-27 22:32:52 UTC
Is it possible that "generation" in this context doesn't refer to the actual generation group, but some combination of that and/or some significant time period?

For example, I believe it is possible that all descendants of slaves acquired from slave raids that occurred within the first 100 years of discovering the Minmatar are Generation 1, regardless of the current year. Rules and regulations could just as easily include conditions that advance the generation of offspring should the father and mother be of different generations.

While I don't think that an exact figure of slaves should be given, the laws for what constitutes a generation should.
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