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Specific Examples of Where Risk Should Be Inserted Successfully Into High-sec

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Author
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1 - 2012-10-08 20:49:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
This thread will make a legitimate attempt to engage in logical discussion about changes that could be made to the system as it is to make it less lopsided with regard to risk. A lack of risk is clearly conducive to both runaway deflation (a function of Value = Demand / Supply) and to botting, due to the ease of operation.

It is my hope that this discussion will be conducted in good faith by all participants. Having said that, here are specific changes I would propose to make for more balanced gameplay in High-security space:


  • Allow smartbombs to be activated in the vicinity of anchored containers, both secure and unsecure. These containers' purpose was to hold additional ores and ices, allowing miners to increase their efficiency by remaining in the belts for a considerably longer time, given the size of cargo holds on the old barges and exhumers. Their volume is no longer conducive to anything approaching efficiency, and their ancillary presence is clearly laid out in the form of a giant smartbomb shield around high-security ice fields. That is broken.

  • Increase the yield of the Hulk by adding additional grid and cpu and an extra hardpoint to make it a more attractive option for "ninja miners." This may encourage miners to try ninja mining in a way that makes sense, thus presenting themselves as potential targets, something needed drastically to combat botting and deflation.

  • Introduce the chance for much more difficult NPC spawns to appear anywhere materials can be harvested, and with greater frequency. The current "threats" to mining successfully are grossly inadequate to the task, given the EHP of the new exhumers and barges.

  • Make ice depletable in the same way that ores are. This will force adaptation where none has ever occurred, potentially even driving conflicts and increasing demand.

  • Develop a system that legitimizes miner vs. miner conflicts over resources, such as the Ally system.


Right now the only competition between miners seems to be in jockeying for the best position to be immune from smartbombs and the waiting game of trying to decide when, precisely to unload your ore. In order for high-sec activities to have value, there needs to be high demand for them with moderate supply. Runaway supply will always break the basic equation of economic theory.

I would ask that discussion in this thread be kept to informed and intelligent posts of fact or question, rather than character attacks and mudslinging based on personal playstyle.

As always, thank you for your thoughtful participation.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#2 - 2012-10-08 20:53:43 UTC
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-10-08 20:54:26 UTC
Reserved for when I'm not butt-frustrated with CCP.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

RAGE QU1T
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-10-08 20:58:07 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


The game would die a horrible death, Not all players want to live in null
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#5 - 2012-10-08 21:00:39 UTC
Error Code 17.39.333 : Witty response not found.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-10-08 21:00:51 UTC
huuhuhuhuhuhuhu, you said inserted huuhhhhuuuhhhuuhuuhhhuhu

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-10-08 21:05:39 UTC
RAGE QU1T wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


The game would die a horrible death, Not all players want to live in null


That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#8 - 2012-10-08 21:07:53 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:



  • Make ice depletable in the same way that ores are. This will force adaptation where none has ever occurred, potentially even driving conflicts and increasing demand.

  • Develop a system that legitimizes miner vs. miner conflicts over resources, such as the Ally system.



Letting ice deplete just like ore makes all sense, can't find any reason against it.

But Miner vs Miner conflicts are in the game, war decs works (most bots aren't in npc corps).

And pure old bump and kill off their ore works like wonders.

Having a fleet with better miners, better boost and better haulers. We can win a battle by making you make less isk.

But of course, hiring people (or alts) to harass (as in either scare or gank) the enemy is one version.

If you think that there's no miner-on-miner axxion, then you're not taking notes.

Or just to innocent to notice what's going on in the shadows.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Josef Djugashvilis
#9 - 2012-10-08 21:11:25 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


And I am sure that the three people left playing will have a super time.

This is not a signature.

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#10 - 2012-10-08 21:11:33 UTC
Don't need ever increasing yields. Just as bad as damage power creep.

In Ice systems, static location belts should be replaced with daily comets. Can warp directly to them but their location changes nullify bookmarks daily. Large leading comet cant be mined but the long trail of ice ejaculate can be depleted. Tail respawns throughout the day, but will force new targets as rocks pop. Keeps 30 people from working a single rock all day.

Miner e-war. Indirectly fight competition with different personal costs such as fitting, yield, cargo.
Special crystals or miners that can cause those mining from the same rocks to suffer from decreased yields, longer activations, or greater cap usage. Griefing miners via miners.
Then particular ships could be more resistant to such tactics. Such as Hulk will be effected the least. whereas Macks moderately and Skiffs the most.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-10-08 21:22:45 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RAGE QU1T wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


The game would die a horrible death, Not all players want to live in null


That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.



You're not encouraging people to move anywhere else than another game, bravo.

The core problem of why so many people are not encouraged moving to null is Null sec players themselves and their so pitiful opinion of high sec and players living there, their often pitiful actions and above all their pitiful posting about it.

Lived there and I've enjoyed it, moved to low and I enjoyed it, moved to null and I'm loving it. But this is only because I was curious enough to try it out by my self, never because null sec dudes posting and acting in high sec felt like so interesting or superior or whatever.
You clearly spit on each and every high sec player or their activity when you are the biggest exploiters of each and every single fail/bad implemented/advantage of high sec with your alt corporations and alts. (yours means all null sec)
Then you guys beg CCP to make it so players join null sec or low sec....what a nice joke, I'm still laughing, ho dear this is hilarious...

brb

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-10-08 21:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


Because there's only ONE right way to play a sandbox game .....................




edit
I figured I'd better explain that the above is not a validation of your statement, just incase you somehow manage to completely misinterpet it as such. It's more scathing disdain.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#13 - 2012-10-08 21:23:04 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:


  • Allow smartbombs to be activated in the vicinity of anchored containers, both secure and unsecure.

  • Increase the yield of the Hulk by adding additional grid and cpu and an extra hardpoint to make it a more attractive option for "ninja miners."

  • Introduce the chance for much more difficult NPC spawns to appear anywhere materials can be harvested, and with greater frequency.

  • Make ice depletable in the same way that ores are. This will force adaptation where none has ever occurred, potentially even driving conflicts and increasing demand.

  • Develop a system that legitimizes miner vs. miner conflicts over resources, such as the Ally system.


On smartbombs. I thought you could. GSC's and cans just caused lag for you apparently. I've never used or even considered using GSC/cans as a shield. And I mined 3 Hulks and Orca for a long time. Not an issue imho.

In Ninja mining with a Hulk. Give me a "de-scrammer" as an option and it might just work. Failing that, Hulk dead whatever you do. Use won't increase. I tried it once or twice and I suffered from andrenaline withdrawal for 10 minutes every time even a pixel twinked.

On increased NPC in belts, I agree. I suggested exploding roids the other day as well, to errr.... educate miners about tank.

On ice - meh. Bots can re-target. AFK can re-target. A reduction in ice maybe to make it more finite?

On the last, and this has been mentioned before many times, if you made ore belts smaller, more finite etc. all of the things "anti-miners" want come true. Markets will lift, greater conflict etc.

But it could also be detrimental to the game. Playstyle is what playstyle is. Penalising any playstyle without considering the impacts on the players within that playstyle is a Pandoras Box. The oft used, cold, harsh universe, this is eve, deal with it ad infinitum does not bear out the reality that his $15 is worth exactly the same as your $15.

We serve a greater master - placate him - then change away.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."

Vanyr Andrard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-10-08 21:24:50 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RAGE QU1T wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


The game would die a horrible death, Not all players want to live in null


That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.


Encouraged out of highsec yes, bludgeoned out of highsec no. Gogela's suggestion is too much iron fist, not enough velvet glove. Move ice out of highsec, yes. Rebalance the mineral supply so high-ends are worth more than low-ends again, yes. No more lvl3's or 4's in highsec...little too far.
Crispin McTarmac
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-10-08 22:10:19 UTC
Remember loss of your ship or your life is not the only risk which exists. Failed investment is currently the most important risk in highsec, and it can be extended to any activity simply by giving that activity a (non-trivial) cost.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#16 - 2012-10-08 22:23:22 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RAGE QU1T wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Get the NPC money out of empire. Level 3 and 4 missions all move to low and null, only veldspar available in .5+ systems, etc...

Will solve *most* problems.


The game would die a horrible death, Not all players want to live in null


That is one of the core problems of the game & things will only get worse if more people aren't encouraged out of highsec.

But they will not be encouraged out of high sec, they will be encouraged out of the game. CCP gets less money as a result. Also be fore you say Good Riddance, consider:

You want targets and people in low and Null. At present many stay in high sec, and are not in low or null.
Change high sec to make it less desirable: Those players leave Eve which means they are not in low or null.

Change high sec or not, those players will not be in low or null. Your goal: More people in low or null, will not be achieved.

The reason they do not want to go to low or null is adrenaline. Many simply do not like the sensations caused by adrenaline, and will avoid situations that trigger it.

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#17 - 2012-10-08 22:25:18 UTC
CCP will not, under any circumstances do anything that makes highsec more dangerous for carebears. It just won't happen regardless of how many well-meaning threads people make.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#18 - 2012-10-08 22:29:10 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
CCP will not, under any circumstances do anything that makes highsec more dangerous for carebears. It just won't happen regardless of how many well-meaning threads people make.

Because carebares ship more actual money into CCP or becase they're all carebares in heart?

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#19 - 2012-10-08 22:31:38 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
CCP will not, under any circumstances do anything that makes highsec more dangerous for carebears. It just won't happen regardless of how many well-meaning threads people make.

Any why should they? If a given player does not like high, they can fly elsewhere. No one is forcing you to live in high sec and deal with the players there. You may say "But low sec is undesirable due to reasons xxx and yyy". Well if high sec was turned into low sec, it would gain those exact same problems!

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#20 - 2012-10-08 22:35:41 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
CCP will not, under any circumstances do anything that makes highsec more dangerous for carebears. It just won't happen regardless of how many well-meaning threads people make.

Because carebares ship more actual money into CCP or becase they're all carebares in heart?

For the same reason low sec will not be turned into high sec, and null sec will stay null sec, W will stay W. Each area appeals to a segment of the player base. Having as many different areas, allowing different play styles, as possible attracts more customers.

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