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For all the FW peeps: "Diagonal plexing" - working as intended?

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Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Shadow Cartel
#1 - 2012-10-03 19:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
I wanted to get some input on a specific aspect of the Inferno change, the ability to earn LP from the "diagonal" militia.

Given the massive problem we have right now with dwindling PvP and increased farming, I think its time to re-evaluate the value of this particular element of Faction Warfare.

The community has been very loud and clear that we need to get back to FW being a PvP-centric feature, where players enlist for the pew, and stay because they can afford to fight, as supposed to enlisting for the isk, and fighting if they have to (which is never.)

With that goal of increased pew pew in mind - in your experience, has "diagonal plexing" contributed to increased PvP? Is allowing dominant groups like the Minmatar to spread out deeply into Caldari space helping to create a "target rich environment" for the Amarr militia? Has diagonal plexing played a significant role in allowing an underdog militia to recover, or does it merely band-aid the issue by pacifiying them with isk?

Lets discuss the value of this mechanic, or alternatives if we decide it isn't helping a broken militia to recover, or isn't helping to generate more pew pew.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#2 - 2012-10-03 19:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
well its hard to say. I sometimes roam through the allied space if there is not much going on in local space. Most minmatar farmers (the typical gunless, stabbed incursus/merlin/slasher) moved to caldari space since there are more farmable systems *right now*. More systems = less interruption. However this can change in any moment if the sov map changes.

If the FW changes go through as planned much of this will be solved since farming won't be possible the same was as its now.
(no farming of vulnerable systems, lp for defensive plexing, new AI, npcs block contesting, ...)

So once again.. hard to say right now. However what i would really like to see is a way to mark allies in your overview, local etc. Many i spoke to would never engage allies, esp not when there are wts to shoot at. Checking FoF via show info -> decorations is very annoying right now.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#3 - 2012-10-03 19:47:13 UTC
It is kind of annoying, but it has upsides and downsides.

Most of the time, you get a handfull of "diagonal" militia coming around and farming. sometimes, they put up a fight. Sometimes they bring a neutral to help them, kind of betraying the point in enlisting in the militia, and lowering overall defender sec status.

Its my experience that directly opposed militias usually put up better, longer, harder combats than diagonal militias, who seem mostly interested in multi-boxing and harvesting.

Add to that the fact they do it 23/7, don't flip systems at all, and just contribute to lowering the overall tier thanks to a non-stop farming, makes for a rather dull game in terms of initial ideas for factional warfare.

But hey, when you catch one of the stabbed, boosting, cloaky unarmed merlins... its a blast.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#4 - 2012-10-03 19:49:50 UTC
My take on it has always been that if you plex sites for your ally then you earn your ally's LP for their store.
Crispin McTarmac
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-10-03 20:01:54 UTC
The key at the heart of driving conflict is limited resources. So from a pew pew perspective, the fewer systems a given individual may choose to farm LP from, the better.
Luc Chastot
#6 - 2012-10-03 20:03:57 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
My take on it has always been that if you plex sites for your ally then you earn your ally's LP for their store.


A 10% difference between what you earn plexing your direct enemy's sites, and those of your ally, would be nice.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-10-03 20:31:30 UTC
The Gallente Caldari warzone certainly has had an influx of Minmatar militia; some just farm some PVP as well. I first started noticing many new neutrals and had to start setting certain corps blue (this really needs fixing we should be able to easily identify allied militia).

The problem with receiving your own LP for Plexing the allied warzone is that it does not actually promote true militia cooperation. It is much better for the Minmatar if the Gallente do poorly; they have systems to plex and can spend the LP with great discounts. The LP that is earned is also not spent in the allied factions I Hubs and effectively swapped to support the other warzone.

The proposed mechanics also will not really help this. With the Minmatar almost certain to maintain high warzone control they will actually get better plex rewards for completing plexes in the Gallente Caldari Warzone than either the Gallente or Caldari factions.

A radical solution may be to abolish dual warzones, if there was just one warzone then there may be a better balance across the factions. (probably not going to happen)

LP earned should be for the allied faction, this ensures it is spent in that factions LP stores or that factions I Hubs. LP in the future should be earned at the rate of the allied faction in that warzone.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#8 - 2012-10-03 21:03:20 UTC
I think Zarnaks solution is the best for this, it's sounds rather tricky though because you'd have to leave your own militia everytime you want spend your ally lp.


If Zarnaks solution is not possible then abolish it.
The only situation where the other militia should be able to aid is during massive system-flip-fights.
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2012-10-03 22:49:14 UTC
I like the idea of just 1 warzone. It's never made much sense to me that the 2 warzones are different sizes. It's another reason minmatar is so popular, they need fewer systems to hit tier 5.

If that's not possible, then I'd say ally LP should be abolished. With the new system, you want your militia taking and holding your own space. Defensive LP should help that, and would make going to the other warzone to LP farm illogical.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#10 - 2012-10-03 23:39:38 UTC
Yes, If you plex a caldari you get Gallente. If you plex Minmatar, you get Amarr.

This will prevent minmatar from coming into caldari systems just to farm and instead more for pew.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#11 - 2012-10-04 08:36:03 UTC
It depends.

- Assuming NPC changes are set in stone at this point (they had better damn well be!)

If CCP goes ahead and introduces the 99% static fronts by way of LP for defensive plexes and absurd bleed rates, then it won't matter as farming will reach hitherto unknown heights, combat operations become limited to home-base systems + adjacents (almost there now due to lockout) and FW will effectively be dead.

All other instances, cross faction (who the hell cooked up the diagonal thing .. sheesh! Big smile) LP should be reduced to a bare minimum. Assistance ought to be just that, assistance .. focus should be on the pew (as opposed to orbit assist) but other forms should be available as well.
Examples:
- If ally helps dispatching an enemy the LP-for-kill is increased by XX% (thinking 20-25%)
- When links are made on-grid, an ally booster could get a wee additional boost.
- RR effectiveness of ally's modules could get a wee boost.
- If ally assists with defensive work, NPCs from ally's faction could spawn instead of the native faction (depends on NPC diversity).
- Trading in ally's space cuts taxes/fees (beyond what is achieved through upgrading systems).

In short: If one crosses the border to help ones neighbor fight the evil that torment him, it should be with a gun and supplies rather than running shoes and an open wallet.
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
Spaceship Bebop
#12 - 2012-10-04 12:25:53 UTC
afk plexing alts from any faction plexing any space is the problem - not diagonal plexing. Diagonal plexing is just one way for them to maximize their rewards. From what we know now, defensive afk plexing alts will be scrubbing all the un-occupied regions in FW clean from now on. And their mains will be offensive plexing the same systems as well.

Noa Fuyu
Yub Yub
#13 - 2012-10-04 13:48:14 UTC
Its the farmers that are 1day olds that are the problem, just stop speed tanking plexes, make it so you have to kill the NPCs. Sure there will be a way around this but its a start and makes me wonder why it wasnt in there off the bat. Level out LP rewards for doing it a group though and maybe very small LP rewards when you kill the NPCs. 5 for a frig, 10 for a dessy, 15 cruiser, 20 bc, 30 BS. Something like that. It all will add up.
Rengerel en Distel
#14 - 2012-10-04 22:51:59 UTC
Noa Fuyu wrote:
Its the farmers that are 1day olds that are the problem, just stop speed tanking plexes, make it so you have to kill the NPCs. Sure there will be a way around this but its a start and makes me wonder why it wasnt in there off the bat. Level out LP rewards for doing it a group though and maybe very small LP rewards when you kill the NPCs. 5 for a frig, 10 for a dessy, 15 cruiser, 20 bc, 30 BS. Something like that. It all will add up.


Have to assume you totally skipped the other FW stickies ...

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Ch3244
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-10-05 04:43:32 UTC
no, i for one have no problem with the farming
Commander Ted
F0RCED ENTRY
#16 - 2012-10-05 05:58:12 UTC
Give the plex rats webs. Problem solved

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#17 - 2012-10-05 06:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
I was parked in Raa last night with a friend waiting to move some high value assets. For the longest time (about two hours) the only occupants in Raa were the two of us and one or two plexers. These folk were week old alts flying T1 interceptors. They made a point of spamming Dscan and disappearing when anyone turned up on scan. Their ships were fitted with afterburners, reppers, capacitor rigs and a cloaking device.

Is this what Faction Warfare is supposed to be about?

At some time in the night, someone flew through with a Sin. Within minutes, Raa and the systems around it became very busy: the Sin running around pursued by perhaps a dozen yellow and red targets. The few that I got info on were not involved in Faction Warfare: they were pirates. The Sin disappeared, and over the next half an hour the yellow and red folks wandered around in the hope of scoring a black ops kill. Their numbers gradually died out, then the plexers returned.

Nobody seems to be hunting the plexers: mostly because the plexers log off or warp out to cloak the moment they see anything untoward occurring.

To me, the issue of diagonal plexing is avoiding the elephant in the room: what is (solo-able) PvE doing in an environment intended to encourage PvP. Give the plexes warp scramming interceptors that can actually intercept, stasis webifier towers, neuts, or other means of ensuring that the sites can not be trivially completed. Having the sites means there are places other than gates or stations for players to encounter each other, so the sites are perhaps a good thing at some level.

Perhaps the Level One AI will help make FW more PvP and less PvE, I will wait and see. Diagonal plexing will help once the plexes are not so easily cheesable, and there are mechanisms that make it meaningful to attempt interfering with someone else's capture attempt. When the prey doesn't have to commit to the fight, and can run away on a whim, there will be no PvP.

Even the possibility of getting on a billion ISK kill mail brought pirates out of the woodwork. No one was interested in a week-old alt flying a T1 frigate that would warp off and cloak at the slightest provocation.

That being said, I have heard of people infiltrating plexes with recons to scram and web the plexer. They do this for the jollies, which is what PvP is supposed to be about IMHO. PvP shouldn't be about kill mails, ISK efficiency, or other game mechanic reward. PvP should be about taking someone's stuff despite their best attempts to avoid that loss. The prestige is in getting the hard or lucky kills because you were smart or brave enough to catch that prey.

Once there is some reasonable level of probability that people in low-skill combat ships can catch and kill other people in low-skill combat ships, I would expect plexing's milkshake to bring all the boys to the yard. People will go plexing looking for fights and being handsomely rewarded if none are forthcoming.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#18 - 2012-10-05 07:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: King Rothgar
Mara Rinn wrote:

That being said, I have heard of people infiltrating plexes with recons to scram and web the plexer. They do this for the jollies, which is what PvP is supposed to be about IMHO. PvP shouldn't be about kill mails, ISK efficiency, or other game mechanic reward. PvP should be about taking someone's stuff despite their best attempts to avoid that loss. The prestige is in getting the hard or lucky kills because you were smart or brave enough to catch that prey.

Once there is some reasonable level of probability that people in low-skill combat ships can catch and kill other people in low-skill combat ships, I would expect plexing's milkshake to bring all the boys to the yard. People will go plexing looking for fights and being handsomely rewarded if none are forthcoming.


Confirming I fly a t2 rigged pilgrim with a 120M isk faction scram and loki boosts to catch unarmed slashers. It's the only practical way to get them, if you consider doing that practical. Don't know of anyone else doing it but I doubt I'm the only one.

Edit: oh yeah, back to the topic at hand. I have no problem with cross plexing/fighting. The problem is just how broken FW is in regards to WZ control, plexes and to a lesser extent missions.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Rengerel en Distel
#19 - 2012-10-05 20:58:51 UTC
Perhaps I'm wrong, but i think Hans means if the changes already proposed go in, should diagonal plexing stay. He's not talking about the current mechanics, but the new ones. There won't be 1 week old alts offensively plexing majors in the new system. They might defensively plex minors/rookies, but that'll hardly be a cash cow.

I'd still go with one warzone if possible. If not, you get the other militia LP for plexing their sites, or simply gain some miniscule amount of Empire standings.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#20 - 2012-10-05 21:54:42 UTC
Modicum of glue applied.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]

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