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A conversation regarding chains.

Author
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-10-01 03:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dilaro thagriin
Quote:
[ 2012.10.01 00:16:26 ] Dilaro thagriin > you keep people in chains for nothing more than the circumstances of their birth. Do any other people in the cluster follow such practices?

[ 2012.10.01 00:16:35 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > Yes

[ 2012.10.01 00:16:41 ] Dilaro thagriin > Who?

[ 2012.10.01 00:17:10 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > the Caldari, Gallente, and even, dare I say it, the Minmatar

[ 2012.10.01 00:17:41 ] Vivian Xadi > "Every race and caste will bear children without being told to. Captain Thagriin, is it so hard for you to believe that our faith simply commands its followers to bring civilization to the other races? There is no inherent evil in that."

[ 2012.10.01 00:17:46 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > you all have low level workers correct?
[ 2012.10.01 00:18:11 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > now I'd imagine those low level workers have very limited acess to educational facilities
[ 2012.10.01 00:18:27 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > or rather the offspring thereof
[ 2012.10.01 00:19:06 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > or at least, said low level workers' children would find it difficult to gain entry to the schools and qualifications needed to advance thier stature

[ 2012.10.01 00:19:25 ] Emile Belfleur > Most people in the Federation have access to free basic education. If they squander that, well...they've only themselves to blame.

[ 2012.10.01 00:19:45 ] Zsaryna Adrelana > but what if they grow up in a culture where it is cool to squander education?

[ 2012.10.01 00:20:22 ] Emile Belfleur > Then that is stupid, and if they go along with that, they are stupid, too.


Suffice to say this was not the start of the conversation and that it continued for some time after this section.
I feel the need however, to respond specifically to some parts of this. I shall do so below:

[ 2012.10.01 00:17:41 ] Vivian Xadi > "Every race and caste will bear children without being told to. Captain Thagriin, is it so hard for you to believe that our faith simply commands its followers to bring civilization to the other races? There is no inherent evil in that."

This is shockingly derogatory.
First of all, Yes, every race within the cluster will bear children without being told to. That is called freedom. When two humans care for one another, they have the right to choose if and when they wish to breed. Surely I do not have to tell you this.
When someone tells you when to breed and / or who to breed with, they are treating you no better than cattle.

Secondly, if the faith Ms Xadi here speaks of commands it's followers to bring civilisation to the other races, there is the implicit assumption that no other race is either civilised or has a culture which is worthy of existence. Therefore there IS inherent evil in that. The very fact that her faith commands that all other cultures be crushed and discarded as unimportant or somehow lesser than her own makes it so.

As for Ms Adrelana's statements:
Yes, within all cultures there are low-level workers. Those who grow the crops, tend to the cattle, work in the factories and clean the public spaces, amongst many other tasks that some would deem menial work.
The simple fact remains that a job, no matter how menial the job is, does not equate to hereditary enslavement.

The child of two Caldari factory workers may be predisposed to being another factory worker, and may start their working life in the same factory as their parents, but that does not mean they will remain there. Nor does it mean that their children will remain so.
As an example of this, his foreign policy aside, I can state no more apt a figure than the current Executor of the Caldari state itself, Tibus Heth. Formerly an MTAC operator of Caldari Constructions.

In every other culture within the cluster, Sansha's nation aside, I could live with a family, retain my own spiritual beliefs and culture yet still rise through the 'ranks' whether that be to the head of a corporation or a position of command in their military.

Within the amarrian culture, I would be chained, beaten and told that I was wrong, for holding to the beliefs of my people.

There is no other culture that treats every other culture with such disdain, no other that would enforce it's views upon the entire cluster and enslave every last human to it's will and way.

None, other than Nation.

That is the simple truth. Amarr and Nation, two sides of the same coin. The majority of followers from both sides, blind to the horrors of their people, blind to the lie that their leaders spread and blind to the suffering and misery they cause in the name of peace, unity and god.

-Dilaro
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-10-01 06:16:14 UTC
It's barely possible for anyone of either the Empire or the Kingdom to log into any of the public fora, these days, without this discussion or a variant of it springing up. Your version, in particular, is interesting because I fail to see who you supposed to be talking to.

It clearly isn't anyone from the Kingdom or the Empire. To us, Slavery is a state solely excused by the belief that if you place one of the Fallen into a situation where they are exposed to Discipline and Spiritual Instruction then the result is a chance at the saving of their soul. Everything else is explained by that belief and the need to make it work in real life situations.

It also doesn't appear to be anyone from outside of the Kingdom or the Empire. If you don't share that one belief that excuses Slavery then it is unlikely that any other ethical argument will make sense to you. There are, admittedly, plenty of unethical beliefs that excuse Slavery, but that is a different discussion based on a whole different set of arguments.

To keep this discussion blessedly concise, I'll give you some enlightenment. There are only two methods by which I see an outside agency being capable of ending Slavery as a legitimised institution within the Empire and Kingdom.

Firstly, you embark upon and successfully conclude a campaign of wholesale conquest and then follow it with an occupation focused on the total eradication of the Amarrian Faith. I can hear the salivating and the rubbing of hands already, but such measures are unlikely to be successful unless you can enlist all three of the other Empires and keep them onboard for the duration. I see that as highly unlikely at best. The Caldari are currently our Allies and whilst the Federation is staunchly opposed to many of the institutions of Amarrian culture and government, I doubt they share the kind of knee-jerk hatred of the people themselves that would be necessary.

Secondly, you must attack the doctrinal support that the Amarrian Faith provides for the legitimised institution of Slavery. Do that and I'm sure that popular support would crumble. Without the Mandate of God, Slavery becomes an inefficient economic model that benefits very few citizens of either Empire or Kingdom.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#3 - 2012-10-01 09:37:25 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Firstly, you embark upon and successfully conclude a campaign of wholesale conquest and then follow it with an occupation focused on the total eradication of the Amarrian Faith.


You can keep your faith, just don't ram it down the throats of another race. Let them find their own salvation, be it under a deity , a fat wallet or in a gutter. Your god is so fickle that you need "reclaim" others to bathe in his reverence.

Amaki Mai wrote:
The Caldari are currently our Allies and whilst the Federation is staunchly opposed to many of the institutions of Amarrian culture and government, I doubt they share the kind of knee-jerk hatred of the people themselves that would be necessary.


How about you bypass Matar space and send your slaver vessels directly into Caldari territory and subjugate Caldarians, I'm sure they would have no problem being under your whip, its not far from the truth around the diplomatic table between your Kingdom and the State.

Amaki Mai wrote:
Secondly, you must attack the doctrinal support that the Amarrian Faith provides for the legitimised institution of Slavery. Do that and I'm sure that popular support would crumble. Without the Mandate of God, Slavery becomes an inefficient economic model that benefits very few citizens of either Empire or Kingdom.


Well we all know you hide behind your faith as reasons for continuing the slave trade, just admit it, you like to subjugate, it makes you feel powerful. Then on a whim, and probably for public accolade, your Family releases slaves proclaiming they have been "Reclaimed", "praise the lord", "I got a blinding flash from the almighty, the souls of these slaves are saved, let them be free" or some such dialogue.


Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#4 - 2012-10-01 09:54:05 UTC
Think about it, lets assume you manage to "reclaim" the majority of Matar, or have already done so with a very large population, wouldn't it stand to reason that Matar is now "cleansed" and in reality your allies are actually the heathen scum that you should be focusing on?

Matar could already be your shining paragon with a realisation that Caldari is the next unclean sector that needs your divine attention.

For the sake of argument, I'd say you have done your work, Matar is cleansed, now inform your Kingdom that your god now directs you to Caldari space to continue your hard work. I think Jita would be a good place to start.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-10-01 10:15:52 UTC
Astroyka wrote:
You can keep your faith, just don't ram it down the throats of another race. Let them find their own salvation, be it under a deity , a fat wallet or in a gutter. Your god is so fickle that you need "reclaim" others to bathe in his reverence.


The Reclaiming is a duty, not a reward. Don't you think life would be simpler if we could just simply let everyone go their own way? That said, I'm not claiming that I support forcible Reclaiming in all cases. It doesn't work in all cases, as I'm sure you know full well.


Astroyka wrote:
How about you bypass Matar space and send your slaver vessels directly into Caldari territory and subjugate Caldarians, I'm sure they would have no problem being under your whip, its not far from the truth around the diplomatic table between your Kingdom and the State.


If there are Amarrian vessels taking Slaves in Republic territory, then they are breaking agreements signed in good faith between the major factions and breaking both Church and State law. If you know Amarrians who are illegally seizing slaves then report them to the Theological Council or to the Civil Service.


Astroyka wrote:
Well we all know you hide behind your faith as reasons for continuing the slave trade, just admit it, you like to subjugate, it makes you feel powerful. Then on a whim, and probably for public accolade, your Family releases slaves proclaiming they have been "Reclaimed", "praise the lord", "I got a blinding flash from the almighty, the souls of these slaves are saved, let them be free" or some such dialogue.


Make your mind up. Is it for our 'fickle' God? Economic reasons? Because it makes us feel all big and powerful? Does taking Slaves have these effects or does releasing them? Are you against us releasing the Slaves we released, are you for us releasing the Slaves we released or do you want us to release more Slaves?

I can't keep track of your arguments. They shift so much!
Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#6 - 2012-10-01 10:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelyn Meiyi
Astroyka wrote:

Well we all know you hide behind your faith as reasons for continuing the slave trade, just admit it, you like to subjugate, it makes you feel powerful. Then on a whim, and probably for public accolade, your Family releases slaves proclaiming they have been "Reclaimed", "praise the lord", "I got a blinding flash from the almighty, the souls of these slaves are saved, let them be free" or some such dialogue.


I suppose you would prefer that I lock them up without any chance of seeing freedom.

What your narrow mind will likely never understand is that I did not free them for 'public accolade', and I did not do it 'on a whim'. In fact, the only person I see making the proverbial 'big stink' about my announcement is you. Thank you, by the way -- your lovely little rant brought so many readers to my previous message.

I find it rather telling that you accuse us of seeking to destroy the Matari faith in one breath, and then immediately turn about and advocate the dismantling of our faith in the next. Has your anger really blinded you so completely that you would perpetrate the very 'evil act' that you fight so hard to prevent?

There's a word for that: psychopathy.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#7 - 2012-10-01 10:41:45 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Make your mind up. Is it for our 'fickle' God? Economic reasons? Because it makes us feel all big and powerful? Does taking Slaves have these effects or does releasing them? Are you against us releasing the Slaves we released, are you for us releasing the Slaves we released or do you want us to release more Slaves?

I can't keep track of your arguments. They shift so much!


It's really quite simple, don't have any slaves. It's not a question of making up my mind, all those reasons you state are valid, you pick one.

Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
I suppose you would prefer that I lock them up without any chance of seeing freedom.


Again, it's really quite simple, don't have any slaves.

Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
What your narrow mind will likely never understand is that I did not free them for 'public accolade', and I did not do it 'on a whim'. In fact, the only person I see making the proverbial 'big stink' about my announcement is you. Thank you, by the way -- your lovely little rant brought so many readers to my previous message.


You are welcome, your announcement was good news and I was grateful in that thread for the release of your "reclaimed", clearly you decided to take a different view on the discussion.

Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
I find it rather telling that you accuse us of seeking to destroy the Matari faith in one breath, and then immediately turn about and advocate the dismantling of our faith in the next. Has your anger really blinded you so completely that you would perpetrate the very 'evil act' that you fight so hard to prevent?


As I said before, I have little interest in dismantling your faith, you can keep it, just stop forcing it down the throats of others who can't defend themselves. The Matari are more than capable of living their own lives and determining their own future, if they are free and allowed to choose.

Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
There's a word for that: psychopathy.


Now now, the medics at the cloning facility regularly check my mental state and certify my pilots license, its pretty much required in my line of work.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#8 - 2012-10-01 11:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucius Vindictus
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
Do any other people in the cluster follow such practices?
..


I would say that our way of slavery is unique yes. But slavery itself is not limited to Amarr space. We Amarr for example don't eat our slaves like the Blood Raiders, or prostitute them like several pirate factions. Capsuleers of all races seem to keep slaves as collecters items as well. How slaves are treated in the Kingdom and in the Empire, which is what you seem to be most interested in, differs greatly between the Holders that own them.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#9 - 2012-10-01 14:02:38 UTC
Astroyka wrote:
Now now, the medics at the cloning facility regularly check my mental state and certify my pilots license, its pretty much required in my line of work.


I don't want to intervene in your conversation as it isn't my place, but I thought I would interject on this point. As it turns out, while there are indeed significant checks on clone neurological formation, there are no psychological checks, such as detection and/or prevention of psychopathy. The gamut of psychological disorders exist in the Capsuleer community, including our eponymous condition: Capsuleer's Dementia.
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-10-01 14:05:24 UTC
And still those 'faithful' skirt around the very issue I have raised.

No culture, other than the Amarrian and Nation 'cultures' Directly espouse the complete destruction of every other culture in the cluster.

"It clearly isn't anyone from the Kingdom or the Empire. To us, Slavery is a state solely excused by the belief that if you place one of the Fallen into a situation where they are exposed to Discipline and Spiritual Instruction then the result is a chance at the saving of their soul. Everything else is explained by that belief and the need to make it work in real life situations."

before you Amarrians came to Matar we had discipline, and to this day we still do, We also had our own, perfectly valid, spiritual beliefs, and the Elders and Shamen who were perfectly capable of offerring guidance within those beliefs.

Your people have NO RIGHT to state that our ways are wrong, no right to chain us and force us to follow your ways.
Such destruction of our culture is abhorrent to any civilised people, yet you continue the practice.

Yes Meiyi, everything your people do IS explained by their beliefs, and that is why we fight you.

only two cultures in the whole cluster do as you claim is your right and duty.
Amarr and Nation.

Both are wrong.
Both are barbaric.

-Dilaro
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#11 - 2012-10-01 14:21:33 UTC
Dilaro;

You are making a fundamental error in your assumptions, which is not surprising because you refuse to look at things with anything approaching an analytical eye.

You keep stating that the only two empires who seek to undermine and destroy the fundamental essence of other societies are the Amarrians and Nation. This is both incorrect and narrow-minded.

It is incorrect because you have not noticed, somehow, the Gallente Federation and its continual push to get the rest of the cluster to adopt their non-existent sort of blank as a baseline. It is a gentle absorption, but a tenacious one.

It is narrow-minded because you lump the ends in with the means and the reasons.

The only reason that Nation, for instance, is at war with the rest of the cluster is because it has been made to realize that you will never let it live in peace. Given the choice between destroying you, and allowing you to destroy it, it chose the only sane option. There is a certain wave of thought that we only need to fight you until we are stronger than you, and another wave of thought that says that we have to eliminate you and drag you into the fold, or Nation will never be safe. I personally belong to the first thought-process, but the more I hear people talking about how much they want to 'glass' Nation planets, the more I and mine slip towards the second. Still, I would be quite happy if we could reach a point where we could take our collection of systems, disconnect it from the rest of you (we no longer need the star gates, after all), and live out our collective immortality in peace. We just need to be sure that you lot won't come screaming in like barbarians at the gate in the future.

I won't speak for the Amarr, because I no longer represent them.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#12 - 2012-10-01 14:48:56 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I don't want to intervene in your conversation as it isn't my place, but I thought I would interject on this point. As it turns out, while there are indeed significant checks on clone neurological formation, there are no psychological checks, such as detection and/or prevention of psychopathy. The gamut of psychological disorders exist in the Capsuleer community, including our eponymous condition: Capsuleer's Dementia.


Thanks for the information; I think I've been paying for tests that clearly give me a false sense of security. Maybe I am a psychopath, I guess the adage "Ignorance is bliss" applies here. I'll continue to spout my rhetoric, but can be mindful that I'm probably not completely compos mentis.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-10-01 17:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zsaryna Adrelana
Quote:
Yes Meiyi, everything your people do IS explained by their beliefs, and that is why we fight you.


I'm going to be fairly straightforward here and state that not everything that people affiliated with the Amarr bloc do is in relation to our beliefs. For instance, I am going to have a kebab later today, I trust you are not going to tell me that I kneel to the ground and pray to God for guidance in my selection of kebab, and that I ask which helps me to serve His will better, reprocessed white mammal or reprocessed brown mammal. Granted we do a lot of strange things but that's not one of them. For one thing, it would upset the other people in the kebab house.

I noticed, Dilaro, that you were throwing around the accusation that Amarrians aren't human. Now I know they're a bit pale and wrinkly, I'll give you that, and they look a bit ill if they go outside, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that they aren't human. However in all seriousness, I find it rather disturbing that you're willing to bandy that about. Throughout history, people have done things to other people and they have used the justification that they are somehow lesser than everyone else. Yes, the Amarrians did it to the Minmatar and you're not going to hear me say a kind word about breeder houses and all the other horrors that the Amarr bloc could dream up. I do not seek to deny these things, because they happened and there is ample evidence to support that fact. Yes it happened, no I didn't do it personally, no I cannot do anything about it. I can't Un-vitoc the millions of Minmatar with a wiggle of my capsuleering fingers, if that is what you wanted me to do then I am sorry to dissapoint you. However for you to say Amarrians are not human... in a way that just means you're no better than them. It's a cheap shot but it's relevant.

I personally do not treat the slaves under my control badly.
I know this point was met with derision and contempt yesterday but what more do you want me to do? I cannot tell other people how to treat thier slaves. For instance, if you bought a blue couch and suddenly I barged into your front room uninvited and said you needed to get a pink stripy one, you would quite rightly take offence. That is how quite a few slave holders I know would take being told that they needed to change thier ways. For them it is literally the same thing, as to them these slaves are property and nothing more. I'm not saying it is right but that is how it is.

To answer your points made in the beginning.
Yes, Tibus Heth ascended from relative obscurity to sieze power in the State, and the State benefitted from it. Yet he is very much in the minority. Part of the reason why people like him are so captivating is because they're so rare. Yes, people do break their class boundaries and rise or fall depending on many things, including the fickle hand of fortune. To use your example, a lot of things went Heth's way, perhaps more than can be explained by mere coincidence, but he was very lucky, there is no denying that fact.

Yes, slaves have children who will remain slaves, that is true, and they may not be allowed to retain thier individual beliefs. However once again we're coming back to the 'Individual holders' question and its inevitable reply "what do you want me to do about it?" I must make this point again because it needs stressing. I cannot influence the behaviour of other slave owners regarding thier slaves with anything more than a polite suggestion.

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.

Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-10-01 20:00:21 UTC
You are a holder, within the same system that treats slaves in an abhorrent and inhuman manner. (yes, i do mean inhuman, not inhumane). As part of that system, and through your refusal to even challenge the methods used by others, you treat slaves with contempt.

The argument that you do not treat your own property with such disdain quite frankly holds no water. you treat them as slaves, slaves are property. property is not human. You wonder why we refuse to treat you as a human?

As for your statement regarding the hereditary nature of slavery and the destruction of other faiths and cultures. That is not an 'individual holder' issue, it is implicit within the current amarian culture of slaveholding.

I do not believe that slaveholders, no matter who they are, should be treated as humans by the rest of the cluster. They do not treat their 'property' as humans, and as the old saying goes, you should treat others as you expect to be treated.

however, if you truly believe you treat your slaves well, here is an idea.
seal yourself in a warehouse with them, alone. remove their chains and supply any who are infected with vitoxin with a lifetimes supply of vitoc. Then prostrate yourself naked on the floor before them as ask that they treat you as they believe you deserve.
I sincerely doubt you would ever return to the capsule, even if they left you alive.

Tiberious.
I knew someone would mention the Federation in this respect, and honestly, i expected that it would be you.
The federation has been helping Matari society rebuild for a long time now. Yes, some of our leaders have attempted to form a government based upon the federate model, but can you truly say you do not understand why. The Federation has the most robust economy in the cluster by far and money equates to power, especially on that scale.

As for their 'gentle absorbtion' The federation do not destroy faiths that are not Gallentean, they have not destroyed the Jin-Mei caste system, and they have not destroyed the Matari. Do they oppose some aspects of the Caldari culture? Yes. Do they oppose Nation and Amarr? Certainly. Would you honestly expect them not to?

As for your statements regarding why Nation fights, if the series of abductions at the dawn of Nation's resugence had not happened perhaps you would have been partially believable, as things stand, i have a hard time not laughing.
Nation was defeated the first time because of it's own inhuman treatment of it's populace, The implantation and mutilation of tens of thousands of those who were sucked in by Kuvakei's apparent Utopian dream.
Then it returned, and began to abduct millions, using them in the same twisted scheme as before.

Nation, and all those who follow it, lost the right to be listened to as equals a long time ago.

Since you both seem to have missed it again. I'll make it even more simple.

Amarr seeks to take away the beliefs and culture of everyone who is not of amarr 'because god told them to'
Nation seeks to take away the individual freedoms of everyone who is not of nation 'because kuvakei told them to'

The federation simply state that everyone has the inaliable right to freedom and self determination. and 'Gently persuade' those who will listen that such freedoms are right.

Why do you choose to remain blind to the lie your leaders have placed before you? Reasoned thought is all it takes to see through such screens to the rotten core that lies beneath.

Time to wait for the next round of weak rebuttals I suppose.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#15 - 2012-10-01 20:20:55 UTC
It's less that Kuvakei told us to, and more that we have come to realize that the idea of freedom is a laughable one, potentially non-existent, and harmful if it is even really a thing, but okay.

Enjoy the taste of the Gallentean boots, I guess, as your culture is absorbed and replaced and this vaunted spirituality you claim is relegated to the history books, along with the Gallente gods.
Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#16 - 2012-10-01 21:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelyn Meiyi
Astroyka wrote:

It's really quite simple, don't have any slaves. It's not a question of making up my mind, all those reasons you state are valid, you pick one.

. . .

Again, it's really quite simple, don't have any slaves.

. . .

As I said before, I have little interest in dismantling your faith, you can keep it, just stop forcing it down the throats of others who can't defend themselves. The Matari are more than capable of living their own lives and determining their own future, if they are free and allowed to choose.


Can you not see the contradiction in what you're saying? You have no interest in dismantling our faith, yet you suggest that we deny the validity of Scripture by not taking slaves.

As for the 'inhuman' remarks, Captain Thagriin, this territory has been covered over the Summit link -- you stand to alienate the IGS as well, if you continue in this fashion.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#17 - 2012-10-01 21:46:04 UTC
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Can you not see the contradiction in what you're saying? You have no interest in dismantling our faith, yet you suggest that we deny the validity of Scripture by not taking slaves.


I've said it before in this and other channels across New Eden, maybe I've got it all wrong, maybe I should actually be helping Amarrians. You clearly are slaves to your god, scriptures and beliefs, limited by dusty books and senile old clerics.

Wait, what's that, a bright light ... no it can't be ... a deity visiting little old me? "Astroyka, hear me, you must aid the Amarrians and save them from themselves, they are the true slaves of New Eden, they need your help to cleanse their minds and provide salvation for the Amarrian race" .... whoa ... I'm a believer ... I will do as you ask oh great one, let me write this down quickly and spread your divine teachings.

The Scriptures according to Astroyka have been delivered, revere their divine countenance.

Maybe it's a worthy cause, care to join me?

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-10-01 22:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Amaki Mai
Astroyka, come back to us in a thousand years with countless other prophecies from multiple sources and the largest following in the Cluster of any organised religion. Might be compelled to take Saint Astroyka seriously then.

Captain Thagriin, if I followed your instructions I doubt I would have ANY problems making it back to the capsule. My housekeeper and research assistant are rather delicate little things and I doubt they've been exposed to much violence in their lives. I'm toughened from a childhood of farmwork and warehousing chores. I'm pretty sure I could take them AND the two young boys who are my domestic help.

Would killing them with my bare hands REALLY change your mind?
(Here's a hint, I wouldn't do it even if it would. I cherish the chance that one day I'll be able to free them and start them and their children on the path to a life of their own.)

On the subject of Culture you are wholly incorrect, whilst there has been some cultural cross-over between the Khanid and the Amarr, the Church has never been particularly interested in changing our family traditions, our language or anything else. Just our Faith. I can honestly say that the same applied to the Ni-Kunni. It would probably have applied to the Udorians, except that their culture involved subjugating and conquering both the Khanid and the Amarr so, you know, steps had to be taken. I'm not sure that the Ealur even HAD a culture beyond subsistence survival, but I could be wrong.

Now, if you REALLY want a movement that is desirous of the complete destruction of the Culture of others, you'd have to turn to the Gallente. Culture IS the Gallente religion, from what I've seen, and anyone is welcome to join their Church, provided they're willing to toe the party line. Just try establishing an Anti-Democracy society in the Federation, if you don't believe me. I'm sure that Roden's Eagles will be along to 'have a word'.

Again. Calling Slavery immoral is not going to lead to the end of it. Because the Kingdom and the Empire think that it is made moral by God's Will. Insulting the humanity of those who are convinced that they are acting according to the Will of God is not going to change their hearts, it is simply going to confirm them in their beliefs.

Every atrocity, every insult and every blow that is struck in revenge for Slavery merely convinces the Faithful that it is not only justified but vital for the salvation of the people who act that way. I think you need a new strategy if you want to do anything more than continue the cycle of pain.
Astroyka
IXXAXAAR
#19 - 2012-10-01 23:13:24 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
Astroyka, come back to us in a thousand years with countless other prophecies from multiple sources and the largest following in the Cluster of any organised religion. Might be compelled to take Saint Astroyka seriously then.


Maybe I already did, maybe I find a device in the not too distant future that allows me to bend time and space and I go back thousands of years and seed the universe with my teachings and create/perform/predict prophecies. Maybe those teachings have been bastardised by the Amarrians to what you believe now?

If that is the case, I implore you to heed my words now before its too late or I have to keep going back in time to fix the errors. Sounds like a lot of hard work, save me.

Amaki Mai wrote:
Now, if you REALLY want a movement that is desirous of the complete destruction of the Culture of others, you'd have to turn to the Gallente. Culture IS the Gallente religion, from what I've seen, and anyone is welcome to join their Church, provided they're willing to toe the party line


Pot? Kettle? Black?

Amaki Mai wrote:
Every atrocity, every insult and every blow that is struck in revenge for Slavery merely convinces the Faithful that it is not only justified but vital for the salvation of the people who act that way.


Convenient "closed loop" there for you. It makes no difference, patience is a virtue. I'm sure I've written that in a sermon somewhere.

Astroyka

A New Eden pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden

www.astroyka.net

@Astroyka

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-10-01 23:29:32 UTC
How am I to know that you're not testing my Faith, oh prophet?

Anyway, no - it's not convenient for me. It's very inconvenient for me, actually. I don't make my money blowing up anyone other than Pirates and the occaisional mineral-rich rock. The end of the Faction War. The end of Slavery. The beginning of a new detente with the Federation and the Republic - all these things would PROFIT me financially.

I'm a capsuleer, do you think I can't afford to pay the five Slaves in my household a living wage? Especially since one of them is a newborn babe and therefore doesn't draw a salary?

As for the 'Pot/Kettle' reference. We were referring to the destruction of culture and I was just pointing out that destruction of culture is not a requirement of conversion to the Faith. It is, however, a requirement of conversion to the Gallente Faith.
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