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The voting reform discussion

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Goonswarm Federation
#541 - 2013-02-17 21:29:53 UTC
The current voting issue is, & always will be voter apathy. The people always complaining about who is on the CSM are the same people that tell you how there's no point voting. If they actually voted...

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Gallente Federation
#542 - 2013-02-17 23:39:27 UTC
James Arget has confirmed, via Two Step, that the voting system is changing. According to James, Two Step has a blog post detailing the new system and it's ready to post as soon as CCP gives the go ahead (likely with their own devblog.) James does not know what the new voting system will be, other than it will not be first-past-the-post as in previous elections.

You can listen to James Arget here:
http://crossingzebras.com/post/43272573502/csm8jamesarget
Goonswarm Federation
#543 - 2013-02-18 00:03:11 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
James Arget has confirmed, via Two Step, that the voting system is changing. According to James, Two Step has a blog post detailing the new system and it's ready to post as soon as CCP gives the go ahead (likely with their own devblog.) James does not know what the new voting system will be, other than it will not be first-past-the-post as in previous elections.

You can listen to James Arget here:
http://crossingzebras.com/post/43272573502/csm8jamesarget


So a current CSM member told an aspiring CSM member that a change is happening. Doesn't that classify as a NDA breach in itself?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Gallente Federation
#544 - 2013-02-18 00:11:46 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
James Arget has confirmed, via Two Step, that the voting system is changing. According to James, Two Step has a blog post detailing the new system and it's ready to post as soon as CCP gives the go ahead (likely with their own devblog.) James does not know what the new voting system will be, other than it will not be first-past-the-post as in previous elections.

You can listen to James Arget here:
http://crossingzebras.com/post/43272573502/csm8jamesarget
So a current CSM member told an aspiring CSM member that a change is happening. Doesn't that classify as a NDA breach in itself?
Probably not.
#545 - 2013-02-20 02:56:04 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
James Arget has confirmed, via Two Step, that the voting system is changing. According to James, Two Step has a blog post detailing the new system and it's ready to post as soon as CCP gives the go ahead (likely with their own devblog.) James does not know what the new voting system will be, other than it will not be first-past-the-post as in previous elections.

You can listen to James Arget here:
http://crossingzebras.com/post/43272573502/csm8jamesarget
So a current CSM member told an aspiring CSM member that a change is happening. Doesn't that classify as a NDA breach in itself?
Probably not.



It is not a breach of NDA if the only thing mentionned is that a change is coming, without going into any details of the change, CCP clearly made it clear during the Winter Summit and the minutes have been published.

Now, if the content of the change(s) have been talked about, without any prior mention or clearance from CCP, that would be a NDA breach.
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2013-02-21 04:25:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/02/schulze.html

It's probably common-knowledge by now that the voting system is going to change. According to a recent interview with one of the wormhole candidates, they were told by Two Step that the system would change, and that Two Step has a blog post ready and waiting for the official CCP announcement.

The exact voting system is not known for sure. I think it's a safe bet that it will be the Schulze method. CCP Veritas will be coding the new voting system. CCP Veritas has mentioned being in favour of the Schulze method on multiple occasions. Since Veritas is the one doing the work, CCP Xhagen will likely defer to whatever it is he wants to do. I don't say this as a complaint, simply as rationale for my belief that we'll likely be getting the Schulze method this spring.

(If on the off chance it's not Schulze, then likely a straight-forward single transferable vote [STV] model. Either way, the voting process is similar, if not the results entirely.)

What's interesting is that, under the previous first-past-the-post system, a large group like Goonswarm had the capability of getting two to three candidates elected. (Although, during CSM7, they chose to utilize all their voting power towards a single candidate.)

What's interesting in a Schulze or STV system is that Goonswarm will have influence over every single candidate, not simply the one or three candidates they want elected. How they tell their members to rank candidates will have a strong influence on the overall results. Goonswarm was 1/6th of the voting electorate during CSM7. Consider also that the CFC was approximately 1/5th of the voting electorate last year, that they've grown in the interim, and that they'll mostly follow the Goonswarm voting trend.

Consider further Test Alliance and the HBC. Although their voting strategy will likely differ from that of Goonswarm and the CFC, the differences are not likely to be stark. The entirety of the CFC and the HBC is approaching nearly half of the voting electorate. That's an incredible amount of influence.

Consider, that if we're looking at a more complex voting system, we're likely going to see a lower overall turnout than we did for CSM7. I'm predicting 45K-50K votes, down from 60K votes last year. CFC and HBC voting will likely not suffer the same percentage decline.

I don't point this out because I think it's a bad thing. I've never been unhappy with any candidate that Goonswarm has chosen to support. I simply point it out, because if the goal was to limit the influence of the large powerblocs, it seems to me that changing the voting system will give these nullsec blocs increased power in creating a CSM to their liking. How they vote will likely determine nearly all fourteen members sitting on the council, and the order in which they sit.

Now I'm not suggesting that Goonswarm is going to stack the council with a tonne of null candidates, they can't really do that, the system is not that gameable. They're smarter than that, anyhow. They'll look at who is running and decide who they want to serve with. If they don't want Mike Azariah on the council, then Mike Azariah will not be on the council. Mynnna will be ranked first, obviously. Then I would imagine Ripard Teg, Marc Scaurus, Malcanis, Unforgiven Storm, whichever wormhole candidate they prefer, and maybe even James 315, will all be on the ranked voting list that Goons will supply to their members.

Come election time, I'd love to see the suggested rankings that Goonswarm sends out to its membership. I'd love to compare that list at the end of the election to the results. I think there's going to be a lot of similarity between how the CFC/HBC voted and the final tally.
#547 - 2013-02-21 04:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
^ What about Mynna being a serious candidate, or the goons having one.

I do understand they could wreck the elections, but is that the goons number one goal? I suppose if they feel they have nothing else to lose, they could do the strategy you propose.

But Mynna did seem to want to improve the game, or perhaps the goons did. Be hard to do that as well as gimmick the elections up. But who knows, could be awfully funny for them to do it. Be interesting to see what they choose.

Oops or there is TEST, and how much Montolio wants war and chaos. Suppose the elections could be a way for him to get it.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Gallente Federation
#548 - 2013-02-21 05:07:07 UTC
rodyas wrote:
I do understand they could wreck the elections ...
Who said anything about wrecking the election?
#549 - 2013-02-21 05:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
I suppose making something, in their own image isn't really wrecking. Only unless the original object had an image to begin with.

Surely you mostly jest though. But I suppose if enough candidates annoy you, that them running ruins the original image as well.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#550 - 2013-02-21 06:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
rodyas wrote:
I do understand they could wreck the elections ...
Who said anything about wrecking the election?


Ah I reread your blog and I think I see what you mean.

You went with the, they do care about the game route, so they don't totally have fun with the system. Just try to get one that represents them, plus maybe a few others that make it seem, they know what is best. And its not really a joke CSM.

I would like to point out, Mittens did want more people to vote for him, so he wouldn't just be a joke CSM. So even going the nicer route, can still be hard.

Personally I hope they go for broke if they do anything at all. Just elect the most annoying candidates, and perhaps elect a write-in person. Of course I wonder if CCP would ban them for that or not.

I suppose CCP could just keep the same system they have, but just ban people, if they find out they abused it with organization and such.

Anyhow the voter reform topic, usually sucks, and it will be interesting what CCP has planned.

Personally I hope they go with another meta gaming idea like they did with ship balancing project. Any pilot older then 3 months will either lose SP, won't get a new ship, won't be able to post on the forums, will be banned after trolling the CSM or CCP, unless they vote in the CSM election.

Of course most people will say this is a reward incentive type method. But I just like to focus on how this will force everyone to meta game so they don't get shafted.

CCP can even call it the Great CSM Election to help everyone get jazzed for it and such.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Gallente Federation
#551 - 2013-02-21 07:13:19 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
rodyas wrote:
I do understand they could wreck the elections ...
Who said anything about wrecking the election?
Ah I reread your blog and I think I see what you mean.

You went with the, they do care about the game route, so they don't totally have fun with the system. Just try to get one that represents them, plus maybe a few others that make it seem, they know what is best. And its not really a joke CSM.
I rewrote the second to last paragraph, so perhaps it is clearer now.

"Now I'm not suggesting that Goonswarm is going to stack the council with a tonne of null candidates, they can't really do that, the system is not that gameable. They're smarter than that, anyhow. They'll look at who is running and decide who they want to serve with. If they don't want Mike Azariah on the council, then Mike Azariah will not be on the council. Mynnna will be ranked first, obviously. Then I would imagine Ripard Teg, Marc Scaurus, Malcanis, Unforgiven Storm, whichever wormhole candidate they prefer, and maybe even James 315, will all be on the ranked voting list that Goons will supply to their members."
#552 - 2013-02-21 09:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Thanks for taking my comments seriously, but I think I found why I am so confused really.

By the title and the picture shown, I thought this post was to raise awareness about the exploits that could happen with a new voting system. It was nice to read.

But I think I got thrown off, when you talk about what TEST or the Goons might do. It felt like when I read that part, you supported them, since you would like the CSM they would create.

So would you support the CSM the goons created? Or do you feel the results would annoy you at all? Or you gonna wait for them to officially decide what they are gonna do, before you make your decision?

I mean when the dev blog is release, you might actually support the Schultz method or one similar, since it might help you get the CSM you want, since you like what the goons or test will pick. Or maybe you don't like what the goons pick, so you don't like the Schultz method, but like ya said, the goons and test could always run for like 2-3 candidates anyhow.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

#553 - 2013-02-21 09:59:36 UTC
The topic is called the voting reform, thus including more than the voting system. I have the impression that we are talking how to complicate matters, be less transparent and discourage most of the players to even think about voting.
I am not worried about the capacity of major alliances to analyze whatever system is thrown at them and find the best way to promote their interests.
I am worried about the rest of the players who will be forced to learn a complicate system in order to determine what is the best choice for them, a fact that might discourage many, although they do have the best intentions.

The world needs you to stop being boring!

The Initiative.
#554 - 2013-02-21 10:25:19 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
rodyas wrote:
I do understand they could wreck the elections ...
Who said anything about wrecking the election?
Ah I reread your blog and I think I see what you mean.

You went with the, they do care about the game route, so they don't totally have fun with the system. Just try to get one that represents them, plus maybe a few others that make it seem, they know what is best. And its not really a joke CSM.
I rewrote the second to last paragraph, so perhaps it is clearer now.

"Now I'm not suggesting that Goonswarm is going to stack the council with a tonne of null candidates, they can't really do that, the system is not that gameable. They're smarter than that, anyhow. They'll look at who is running and decide who they want to serve with. If they don't want Mike Azariah on the council, then Mike Azariah will not be on the council. Mynnna will be ranked first, obviously. Then I would imagine Ripard Teg, Marc Scaurus, Malcanis, Unforgiven Storm, whichever wormhole candidate they prefer, and maybe even James 315, will all be on the ranked voting list that Goons will supply to their members."


That sounds like a pretty good CSM list! Blink

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

#555 - 2013-02-21 13:19:52 UTC
The announcement is out. We have a new voting system.

Key words: STV, qualifications, 1 vote per account, 2 weeks of voting, transparency.

At this point I will only state that I got it right on at least the duration and one vote per account.



The world needs you to stop being boring!

Clockwork Pineapple
#556 - 2013-02-21 17:09:43 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:
At this point I will only state that I got it right on at least the duration and one vote per account.


So the only two parts you got right are the only two parts that already existed and didn't change? Nostradamus, is that you?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

#557 - 2013-02-21 17:17:08 UTC
Shhh, don't tell anyone.

I'll make a special prediction just for you....we will have elections in the next months...

Cool

The world needs you to stop being boring!

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