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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Gallente Federation
#1001 - 2012-11-21 12:49:56 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Because it acting like a Null sec lobby is not doing much for the CSM its self and really is minimalising its role and usefulness to the community.

Although it has managed to achieve in areas where it is has some members like mining and FW these are not the areas that the CSM as a whole push. So if it wishes to be a community representative it needs to act like one not just a Null lobby with some rouge agents that manage to get things done.

From my POV, this CSM has been fairly limpwristed, and I don't put that down to where people in it come from, more how little they seem to be pushing CCP to fixing the right things.

How much of that is reality and how much of that is just the fact they haven't been as effective in communicating what they do to the playerbase, remains to be seen.

Issler

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

The Initiative.
#1002 - 2012-11-21 19:56:04 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Because it acting like a Null sec lobby is not doing much for the CSM its self and really is minimalising its role and usefulness to the community.

Although it has managed to achieve in areas where it is has some members like mining and FW these are not the areas that the CSM as a whole push. So if it wishes to be a community representative it needs to act like one not just a Null lobby with some rouge agents that manage to get things done.

From my POV, this CSM has been fairly limpwristed, and I don't put that down to where people in it come from, more how little they seem to be pushing CCP to fixing the right things.

How much of that is reality and how much of that is just the fact they haven't been as effective in communicating what they do to the playerbase, remains to be seen.

Issler



Zim, you forgot to switch characters.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Clockwork Pineapple
#1003 - 2012-11-21 20:04:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zim, you forgot to switch characters.


Nice, another conspiracy theory!

Issler

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Gallente Federation
#1004 - 2012-11-21 20:46:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zim, you forgot to switch characters.

I did not.

Issler

(in case you haven't caught on yet, it's a new mini-meme)

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

#1005 - 2012-11-21 21:33:25 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Zim, you forgot to switch characters.


Nice, another conspiracy theory!

Issler

Now that would be really funny

Lord Zim = Issler

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Shadow Cartel
#1006 - 2012-11-21 23:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Frying Doom wrote:
Because it acting like a Null sec lobby is not doing much for the CSM its self and really is minimalising its role and usefulness to the community.

Although it has managed to achieve in areas where it is has some members like mining and FW these are not the areas that the CSM as a whole push. So if it wishes to be a community representative it needs to act like one not just a Null lobby with some rouge agents that manage to get things done.


You keep arguing like the job of CSM members is to push for this portion of the population or that population depending on who voted them into office. Read the white paper. Our obligation is to represent the playerbase, not special interests, to CCP.

So instead of trying to categorize everyone and label us as lobbyists for one party or another, why don't you take a deep breath, and start over by explaining why you don't think 0.0 deserves attention after several years of neglect? Maybe you can also explain why the CSM as a whole would need to push FW when CCP's already agreed to work on it, and they get expert council from myself (and making unprecedented use of my feedback as well)? Where is the sense of urgency where the CSM needs to waste their unanimous voice promoting something that's already happening?

Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? Surely these are tough questions for other Faction Warfare enthusiasts to hear from someone like myself, but we have to be honest with ourselves here. Don't get me wrong - I'm incredibly grateful that they dedicated the resources they have to Faction Warfare and other gameplay systems that affect lowsec. I believe they were dollars well-spent. But CCP needs to spend a well rounded amount of time on a well rounded number of players groups - and its just simply fact that 0.0 pilots have received some of the least development attention of any for years now.

These are objective issues - how much development time has been spent on which area of space is easily researched and demonstrated. You continued attempts to politicize this and turn it into "these people" sticking up for "that group" demonstrate either a lack of understanding or a lack of care for the responsibilities of the CSM - who get elected through votes but should always serve the needs of the community and the game as a whole.

Nullsec needs serious work. Mining and Industry need serious work. POS's need serious work. These really aren't facts that are debated much amongst savvy, informed players who understand the game at its core. And thus we must make these realities clear to CCP, regardless of what player group we belong to.

Issler

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

It Burns When I'm PvPing
#1007 - 2012-11-22 01:18:20 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Because it acting like a Null sec lobby is not doing much for the CSM its self and really is minimalising its role and usefulness to the community.

Although it has managed to achieve in areas where it is has some members like mining and FW these are not the areas that the CSM as a whole push. So if it wishes to be a community representative it needs to act like one not just a Null lobby with some rouge agents that manage to get things done.


You keep arguing like the job of CSM members is to push for this portion of the population or that population depending on who voted them into office. Read the white paper. Our obligation is to represent the playerbase, not special interests, to CCP.

So instead of trying to categorize everyone and label us as lobbyists for one party or another, why don't you take a deep breath, and start over by explaining why you don't think 0.0 deserves attention after several years of neglect? Maybe you can also explain why the CSM as a whole would need to push FW when CCP's already agreed to work on it, and they get expert council from myself (and making unprecedented use of my feedback as well)? Where is the sense of urgency where the CSM needs to waste their unanimous voice promoting something that's already happening?

Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? Surely these are tough questions for other Faction Warfare enthusiasts to hear from someone like myself, but we have to be honest with ourselves here.



Well I think the potential of faction war is fading fast based on random changes that ccp made and the likelyhood that they will leave it behind. The potential was there, but lets be honest with ourselves, they are moving on without fixing it. Somehow they were unable to focus on the real problems. As soon as ccp moves to null sec and gives people crazy isk to go there (as is their mo for every new feature they bring out) fw will be the same as it ever was.

Its interesting to hear you say they are making "unprecedented use of [your] feed back" where as in all the fw community threads/blogs you minimize your impact.




Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Don't get me wrong - I'm incredibly grateful that they dedicated the resources they have to Faction Warfare and other gameplay systems that affect lowsec. I believe they were dollars well-spent. But CCP needs to spend a well rounded amount of time on a well rounded number of players groups - and its just simply fact that 0.0 pilots have received some of the least development attention of any for years now.

These are objective issues - how much development time has been spent on which area of space is easily researched and demonstrated. You continued attempts to politicize this and turn it into "these people" sticking up for "that group" demonstrate either a lack of understanding or a lack of care for the responsibilities of the CSM - who get elected through votes but should always serve the needs of the community and the game as a whole.

Nullsec needs serious work. Mining and Industry need serious work. POS's need serious work. These really aren't facts that are debated much amongst savvy, informed players who understand the game at its core. And thus we must make these realities clear to CCP, regardless of what player group we belong to.

Issler


The csm has not actually articulated what should be done in null sec, despite having a null sec based csm for most of the csm's history.

If they have some clear ideas great have ccp do it. But its a shame ccp is moving away from faction war without ever having a clear idea of what they were doing there to begin with, let alone fixing it. IMO The potential players who might be interested in faction war is much greater than null sec.

But this is actually a matter of opion not objective fact.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

#1008 - 2012-11-22 03:41:57 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Because it acting like a Null sec lobby is not doing much for the CSM its self and really is minimalising its role and usefulness to the community.

Although it has managed to achieve in areas where it is has some members like mining and FW these are not the areas that the CSM as a whole push. So if it wishes to be a community representative it needs to act like one not just a Null lobby with some rouge agents that manage to get things done.


You keep arguing like the job of CSM members is to push for this portion of the population or that population depending on who voted them into office. Read the white paper. Our obligation is to represent the playerbase, not special interests, to CCP.

So instead of trying to categorize everyone and label us as lobbyists for one party or another, why don't you take a deep breath, and start over by explaining why you don't think 0.0 deserves attention after several years of neglect? Maybe you can also explain why the CSM as a whole would need to push FW when CCP's already agreed to work on it, and they get expert council from myself (and making unprecedented use of my feedback as well)? Where is the sense of urgency where the CSM needs to waste their unanimous voice promoting something that's already happening?

Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? Surely these are tough questions for other Faction Warfare enthusiasts to hear from someone like myself, but we have to be honest with ourselves here. Don't get me wrong - I'm incredibly grateful that they dedicated the resources they have to Faction Warfare and other gameplay systems that affect lowsec. I believe they were dollars well-spent. But CCP needs to spend a well rounded amount of time on a well rounded number of players groups - and its just simply fact that 0.0 pilots have received some of the least development attention of any for years now.

These are objective issues - how much development time has been spent on which area of space is easily researched and demonstrated. You continued attempts to politicize this and turn it into "these people" sticking up for "that group" demonstrate either a lack of understanding or a lack of care for the responsibilities of the CSM - who get elected through votes but should always serve the needs of the community and the game as a whole.

Nullsec needs serious work. Mining and Industry need serious work. POS's need serious work. These really aren't facts that are debated much amongst savvy, informed players who understand the game at its core. And thus we must make these realities clear to CCP, regardless of what player group we belong to.

Issler


First very nice closing tag and you worry about other people labeling you.


So lets start this train wreck rolling

You said " Our obligation is to represent the playerbase, not special interests, to CCP. "
Yes it is but as you are here to represent the player base doesnt that mean your actions should also be representative of the playerbase? 20% of the players where in Null at the last count, why do you believe it deserves more than 20% of the games resources?

As to your next point "So instead of trying to categorize everyone and label us as lobbyists for one party or another, why don't you take a deep breath, and start over by explaining why you don't think 0.0 deserves attention after several years of neglect?"
Now after so many wasted resources on such a small part of the games population, why do you think more resources should be wasted?

Oh as too "You keep arguing like the job of CSM members is to push for this portion of the population or that population depending on who voted them into office. "
No I don't sorry never have, maybe if you considered reading and thought about things, you would not have to worry about sticking your feet into your mouth.
What I have said is that it is your job to represent the whole player base but that all that ever seems to come out of the CSM is Null sec crap and some rouge agents that actually manage to get other things done, despite the rest of the CSM.

"Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? Surely these are tough questions for other Faction Warfare enthusiasts to hear from someone like myself, but we have to be honest with ourselves here. Don't get me wrong - I'm incredibly grateful that they dedicated the resources they have to Faction Warfare and other gameplay systems that affect lowsec. I believe they were dollars well-spent. But CCP needs to spend a well rounded amount of time on a well rounded number of players groups - and its just simply fact that 0.0 pilots have received some of the least development attention of any for years now. "

Ok on that one I laughed "Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions? "

You just argued that you should be working on Hi-sec and Null, lo and Wormholes should not get much as it would be irresponsible.

Next

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

#1009 - 2012-11-22 03:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
"But CCP needs to spend a well rounded amount of time on a well rounded number of players groups - and its just simply fact that 0.0 pilots have received some of the least development attention of any for years now. "
Yes that is true, what is also true is that most of the work done by CSM 5 and especially CSM 6 was about Null and not much else except by a few people.


"These are objective issues - how much development time has been spent on which area of space is easily researched and demonstrated. You continued attempts to politicize this and turn it into "these people" sticking up for "that group" demonstrate either a lack of understanding or a lack of care for the responsibilities of the CSM - who get elected through votes but should always serve the needs of the community and the game as a whole."
No it is you who seems to not understand your own job, you are there for as representatives of the whole player base not just Null
So on that point how many resources have been dedicated to Hi-sec over the years? Is it 3 times the amount used on Null over the years? If not why are you not fighting harder for Hi-sec residence.

"Nullsec needs serious work. Mining and Industry need serious work. POS's need serious work. These really aren't facts that are debated much amongst savvy, informed players who understand the game at its core. And thus we must make these realities clear to CCP, regardless of what player group we belong to."
I don't argue that at all, maybe if you read this thread you would understand that but as you have already stated that it would be irresponsible for CCP to work on Null, how about you prove me wrong and don't just try to get things done for Null

As you said "Do you think its responsible for CCP to spend an entire year working on something that affects a small portion of the population, when they could be fixing an area of space that affects multiple times that many players and subcriptions and potential subscriptions?"

As 20% is a small portion of the population you are stating you should not be working on it. So why are you?
Edit: I thought I better explain this for you 20% is a smaller amount than 60%. There are 3 times as many people in high than in Null. So Null is a small portion when compared to Hi-sec. Hope you could understand that.

Hans

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

It Burns When I'm PvPing
#1010 - 2012-11-22 04:13:58 UTC
Whats the matter with running on a platform of ideas? I mean instead of just constantly trying to guage what players are saying most recently and mirror that like the changing winds, why not say if I am elected I will push for x yand z. And then when/if you are elected push for x y and z.

The problem with just parroting what is popular at the instant is that as the game changes so will the playerbase and their views.

CCP can ask the players to take polls and find out what common views of the month are. But that doesn't mean its thought through.

If you don't have a vision for the game, or some aspect of it, why even run? Just to tell ccp what you think the players want, even though you don't do any scientific polls, and therefore just end up telling ccp what your buds want?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

BYRAN BRASSBALLS
#1011 - 2012-11-27 19:05:21 UTC
Sorry, but just kill the CSM. Let CCP send out up and down votes via cash playing players. It stop the silly stuff. ( I respect the CSM, I just think it is system that cannot work. )
The Initiative.
#1012 - 2012-11-28 14:09:46 UTC
BYRAN BRASSBALLS wrote:
Sorry, but just kill the CSM. Let CCP send out up and down votes via cash playing players. It stop the silly stuff. ( I respect the CSM, I just think it is system that cannot work. )


How do you get the players to up and downvote each individual issue?

What makes you think that the process would achieve better average representation than asking them to just vote 1x a year?

How do you handle public voting on issues that have to stay confidential?

How exactly does the current system not work?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Caldari State
#1013 - 2012-11-28 15:15:34 UTC
This was the first year I voted for CSM and I really didn't like the way it was arranged. I think a better system would be to have specific interest slots and have people run for those areas. So null sec gets one slot, high one, low one, industry, faction warfare, mercenary.... whatever areas of the game that need to be included which is probably the most difficult part to narrow down.

Each player gets to vote for one third of the total number of slots. Whether they put all their votes on one candidate or spread them out is up to the player. In the end the candidates have to choose which area of the game they want to represent and the players should feel like their vote counted towards the areas they want to see improvements.

Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/

The Initiative.
#1014 - 2012-11-28 15:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Ruareve wrote:
This was the first year I voted for CSM and I really didn't like the way it was arranged. I think a better system would be to have specific interest slots and have people run for those areas. So null sec gets one slot, high one, low one, industry, faction warfare, mercenary.... whatever areas of the game that need to be included which is probably the most difficult part to narrow down.

Each player gets to vote for one third of the total number of slots. Whether they put all their votes on one candidate or spread them out is up to the player. In the end the candidates have to choose which area of the game they want to represent and the players should feel like their vote counted towards the areas they want to see improvements.


It has been repeatedly proven that this will hav the exact opposite effect that you intend, essentially you'll just hand all of the CSM to the largest voting bloc, rather than just a couple of seats. One word: ALTS.

The current system is actually the most favourable for minority interests.

EDIT: Unless of course that you're going to propose that CCP audit literally not only each candidate but every vote that's cast in order to make sure that only the "right" peiople can vote. Can you make a business case for the thousands of hours of work that this would take?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gallente Federation
#1015 - 2012-11-29 08:32:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ruareve wrote:
This was the first year I voted for CSM and I really didn't like the way it was arranged. I think a better system would be to have specific interest slots and have people run for those areas. So null sec gets one slot, high one, low one, industry, faction warfare, mercenary.... whatever areas of the game that need to be included which is probably the most difficult part to narrow down.

Each player gets to vote for one third of the total number of slots. Whether they put all their votes on one candidate or spread them out is up to the player. In the end the candidates have to choose which area of the game they want to represent and the players should feel like their vote counted towards the areas they want to see improvements.


It has been repeatedly proven that this will hav the exact opposite effect that you intend, essentially you'll just hand all of the CSM to the largest voting bloc, rather than just a couple of seats. One word: ALTS.

The current system is actually the most favourable for minority interests.

EDIT: Unless of course that you're going to propose that CCP audit literally not only each candidate but every vote that's cast in order to make sure that only the "right" peiople can vote. Can you make a business case for the thousands of hours of work that this would take?

Cheaper solution: Pretend to audit every vote, then just come up with random numbers which looks plausible. Voila, tons of money saved, the "correct" CSM members are selected, and you've had "a vote". Lol

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

The-Culture
#1016 - 2012-12-02 11:26:59 UTC
Had any thought been given to a constituency type election model? [ Eve map divided into 14 constituencies, boundaries drawn up to ensure equal population via player med clone preference] Not saying this would be easy to implement or preferable over another electoral system, just interested if it was considered.

Has any thought also been given to increasing participation of the electorate in the voting process? I know that participation levels have been steadily increasing, however, is there a case to be made for enforced voting - maybe as part of the logon process?
Clockwork Pineapple
#1017 - 2012-12-02 11:52:10 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Had any thought been given to a constituency type election model? [ Eve map divided into 14 constituencies, boundaries drawn up to ensure equal population via player med clone preference] Not saying this would be easy to implement or preferable over another electoral system, just interested if it was considered.


How can you quantify what geographical areas of space deserve what representation without screwing over every style of gameplay whose geographical boundaries aren't easily divided into districts (i.e. FW, Wormholes, Incursions)? How does this work for nullsec alliances at war, and thus with clones in different places? Or mercenaries on contract?

Eve is just far too nomadic a game for something this static to work.

Kinis Deren wrote:
Has any thought also been given to increasing participation of the electorate in the voting process? I know that participation levels have been steadily increasing, however, is there a case to be made for enforced voting - maybe as part of the logon process?


Getting voter participation up is a good thing and always will be something to strive towards. Enforced voting however isn't a good way to go. You want actual participants in the CSM process, people who weigh choices and have opinions they want heard, not people that are just clicking a thing so they can login. This is also the same reason why material rewards for voting is a bad idea as well.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Gallente Federation
#1018 - 2013-02-15 01:13:07 UTC
Again. More voter awareness and education needed.

Reform is fine, if CCP is deadset on that direction, but vacating any work towards increased awareness is not an option.
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