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Why Ninja Salvaging should be considered an exploit

Author
MetalDev
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-08-31 14:55:06 UTC
Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.

But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...

And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.

Aranial
Empyrean Warriors
#2 - 2012-08-31 14:55:51 UTC
Not this again...
Jim Era
#3 - 2012-08-31 14:56:36 UTC
because OP is bad and can't take care of himself.

Wat™

Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-08-31 14:59:07 UTC
Learn to deal with them, either let them have your loot or fight them off. If you're worried about them not fighting a "fair" 1v1. Bring more guys to help you out. If you can't be bothered to deal with them with force, relocate and do missions in a quieter space.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-08-31 15:01:07 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.

But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...

And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.



I used to think the same way you do.
However, not to long ago I realized that unless I'm missioning in an extremely slow dps boat like a raven, then it is actually more profitable for me to burn missions and not salvage.

So, I now make more isk because I dont' stop to salvage, and if someone ninja loots or salvages my wrecks, I don't have to worry about it.

However, I do leave them yellow just in case I decide I wanna pop someone, but it's been so long since I've seen someone come in to a mission on me that I don't even care anymore.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#6 - 2012-08-31 15:03:39 UTC
Exploits are profiting from things passively that should be active. (Like AFK plexing)

A ninja savager has to take the time and effort to probe down the mission runner just for the salvage, and then risks their ship to do their ninjaing. Working as intended.

Try missioning in a quieter part of high sec...or mission in low sec where you can shoot first if you think you can win.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-08-31 15:04:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortimer Civeri
Not sure if troll...



or genuine butthurt.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin

Esteban Dragonovic
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-08-31 15:11:22 UTC
1. HTFU
2. Where does it say eve is fair.
3. Get some friends, mission with them.

Your enemy came prepaired to fight and was (usually) pretty organized, thus he deserves the natural advanage that gives if you don't take similar precautions. Really, this is simple **** man.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#9 - 2012-08-31 15:11:26 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose.
So where's the exploit?

The salvage isn't yours until you've earned it. You earn it by being the first one to successfully complete a cycle on the wreck. If you want to compete in that race, you need to come equipped for it. If you choose not to be equipped for it, then that's your choice and your loss. In fact, it's not even a loss — it's just not an additional gain on top of what you've already gained. In fact, in most cases, not going for the loot and salvage means you earn more, so leaving it to them is a gain, not a loss.

Oh, and you seem to be confusing theft with salvage. Salvage is not theft or vice versa. Both have their counters.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-08-31 15:14:27 UTC

TL:DR

OP doesn't understand agression mechanics and is unable to spell 'lose'
MetalDev
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-08-31 15:22:29 UTC
Pinstar Colton wrote:
Exploits are profiting from things passively that should be active. (Like AFK plexing)

A ninja savager has to take the time and effort to probe down the mission runner just for the salvage, and then risks their ship to do their ninjaing. Working as intended.

Try missioning in a quieter part of high sec...or mission in low sec where you can shoot first if you think you can win.



They risk their ship...a T1 frigate or Dessy in most cases. Cost less than 500K total. So you pop that. Then the whole fleet of people warp in and you're effed, good by marauder, navy bs, whatever you fly to do level 4's. Then they profit from that.

The exploit is abusing a game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage over a player. Someone stupidly said "you have to earn salvage" - if it wasn't for my guns blowing up that ship, there would be no salvage to collect. Therefore, I earned it. It's mine. Funny how loot can be yours but not salvage, that doesn't make sense. Something's that PASSIVE and should be ACTIVE:

When they steal your loot they ACTIVELY have an aggression countdown for theft. When they steal your salvage NOTHING happens - therefore the result is entirely passive. Like I said, its loose loose, either shoot and get ganked or let them have it and watch your hard work get taken right from under your nose. Dishonorable, weak, lame, and generally poor.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#12 - 2012-08-31 15:24:17 UTC
I'm a carebear and I say: HTFU.

Dealing with Ninja salvagers isn't difficult. Don't mission in high volume systems.

That's pretty much it.

Oh, and thanks for distracting them, to let me run the occasional mission in peace. Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Luke Visteen
#13 - 2012-08-31 15:26:29 UTC
use d-scan (set to 2,5AU). when you see combat probes just warp away for 2 minutes.

.

James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#14 - 2012-08-31 15:27:57 UTC
So you want to eliminate ninja salvagers' fun because you want more risk-free, effortless space money. Okay. Roll
Renan Ruivo
Hengetools Consumer Products S.A.
#15 - 2012-08-31 15:31:18 UTC
OP, did you know that in 0.0 the ONLY way for you to make money to survive is to kill rats while there are no bad people in local ...

and that there are some bad people who will then decide to jump in those systems and stay there .. like ... forever? And cloaked, so that nobody can kill them?! Now people can't make money!!


So really ... there are far worse exploits to deal with!!

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Robert De'Arneth
#16 - 2012-08-31 15:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert De'Arneth
Until it is your bay, it is not yours. I guess I am not seeing how this an exploit. Sounds like a fine use of Sandbox mode to me.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 

Jim Era
#17 - 2012-08-31 15:34:59 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
OP, did you know that in 0.0 the ONLY way for you to make money to survive is to kill rats while there are no bad people in local ...

and that there are some bad people who will then decide to jump in those systems and stay there .. like ... forever? And cloaked, so that nobody can kill them?! Now people can't make money!!


So really ... there are far worse exploits to deal with!!




lol
too scared to actually fight somebody in null

Wat™

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#18 - 2012-08-31 15:35:45 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
They risk their ship...a T1 frigate or Dessy in most cases. Cost less than 500K total. So you pop that. Then the whole fleet of people warp in and you're effed, good by marauder, navy bs, whatever you fly to do level 4's. Then they profit from that.
So go get a better ship yourself while they're doing the same. If they bring logi and support, do so yourself.

Quote:
The exploit is abusing a game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage over a player.
…and where does that happen in this scenario? You have access to the same tools they do. You are also given all the opportunities and decision points you need to make it happen (or not, if that's what you want). Noting is exploited here and no unfair advantages are gained from any of the actions.

Quote:
Someone stupidly said "you have to earn salvage" - if it wasn't for my guns blowing up that ship, there would be no salvage to collect.
Irrelevant. You earn it by salvaging it. Period.
Unless it's in your hold, it's not yours. Your guns did not create the salvage.

Quote:
Funny how loot can be yours but not salvage
That's because you blew the ships up. Loot ownership is (part of) your reward for doing so. Salvage is not. Salvage is your reward for salvaging — a completely separate profession and activity. You earn the salvage by being a better salvager. If you choose not to take part in that contest, or to take part with subpar equipment, then that's your choice and not something that the game needs to compensate for.

In fact, you are the one trying to ask for an exploit here: you want to passively earn right of ownership for something you haven't even done, over someone who has actively done what's needed to get that ownership.

Quote:
When they steal your salvage
They're not stealing it. It is not yours. Unless they take it from your smouldering wreck, it was theirs all along and you have no right to come here and complain that you didn't get something they earned. It makes as much sense as saying that they should get all your bounties LP and standings increases just because they scanned down your mission.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#19 - 2012-08-31 15:35:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
No, CCP disagrees with you, salvage is a free for all.

Now stop posting, you make carebears look like whining children, thus reinforcing the opinions of all those who call them whining children.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#20 - 2012-08-31 15:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MisterNick
Almost certain troll, surely nobody still cries about this. Still, refreshing change from the recent rage from uninformed barge owners Lol

Just in case:

MetalDev wrote:
OThey'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk.


No they won't, they make little from the salvage. Generally the aim is to bait you into attacking - don't do so and it's a waste of their time.

Also - friends, make them. Your corpies can take a swing at thieves too y'know.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."

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